Episode Transcript
The Finance Ghost: Welcome to Episode 249 of Magic Markets. As we start to wind down towards the end of the year, there's still a lot of interesting stuff going on in the markets. And we just finished recording our premium show on Meta, especially a lot of interesting stuff going on there. We'll be doing something completely different in our show that you are listening to right now, and that is chatting to the team from Westbrooke. So a world very far removed from Zuckerberg and all the chaos there around AI capex and everything else.
We will instead be understanding a bit more about some of the really interesting deals that the team has been doing in the UK market, specifically in real estate, and also just understanding a little bit about how that ties into the broader Westbrooke strategy.
Joining us today, James Lightbody from Westbrooke UK, Jodi Slotsky from Westbrooke in South Africa on the distribution team. So we don't have Dino! Shock and horror. He does still work at Westbrooke, but I think he's bored of us. Moe, welcome to your own show. And James and Jodi, welcome to our show. It's lovely to have you both.
Jodi Slotsky: Thanks for having us.
James Lightbody: Good to be here.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, it's such a pleasure speaking to the team from Westbrooke. And I must say, Dino's done his time on Magic Markets. I don't think he's bored of us. I just think he wants us to hear from some of the more interesting voices at Westbrooke.
James, we've had you on before. Certainly we haven't had you for a while. Jodi, I think you're a new voice, so welcome to Magic Markets. I'm really excited to hear what you've got to share with us this week.
James, it's really been a long time since we've spoken. Ghost has referenced all the chaos in the US. The UK has its own chaos, but perhaps to a lesser degree. And in and amongst that chaos, I guess you're finding opportunities.
There's been a lot of discussion around the UK, around European markets this year, just given that geopolitical backdrop we've had in the US. And so I'm going to jump straight into this and say: to what extent is all of this chaos, and maybe Europe, UK specifically, being a little bit more attractive (certainly in terms of some of the narrative) - to what extent is that visible in the deal flow that you've been seeing on the ground in London?
James Lightbody: Great to catch up again. A lot in that question. I think if you look at the UK market, European market, particularly for real estate. It's always worth breaking it down from the big headlines you see, which typically focus on the biggest deals, the biggest developments - there's so many different subsectors of real estate. And then in particular when you look at tariffs and how that might impact things too.
So I think firstly, kind of dealing with the tariff point, I think physical real estate is useful and it can't really be tariffed. So there was no sort of direct impact on that. Really what you're looking at across the board is second order impacts. Are all the tenants going to be impacted? Are all the capital flows going to be impacted?
And I think in real estate - the major impact really was just general uncertainty, as it was for the rest of the market. So, people were about to buy something, they hit pause quite a lot of time, just wait-and-see approach. So volumes were down for a few months.
This all kind of normalised as the financial world moves on pretty quickly to new normals. And really what you saw is some of the trends that hurt real estate starting to unwind and that meant that transaction volumes picked up.
And really, I'll get down to us, but sort of those broad trends were construction costs are still very high. So it's expensive to build things. UK in particular - there's a lack of supply of land, just being an island. It's also crazy hard to actually go through planning to build anything. So, that combination really means that it’s hard to build things, existing assets we thought would do relatively well, and that has played out.
You've seen lease rental increases across the board being very strong. You've seen rates coming down, and so you have seen a lot more transactions actually taking place than say ‘22, ‘23.
In our particular space, we still operate at the lending market of sub-£50 million. So, not the massive deals that you're seeing in the market that were rated off very low cap rates. We're in a very specific end of the market. We're not doing development finance, we're not doing bridge finance - all existing income producing assets and a slightly higher leverage point than what they call here the “high street lenders”, the big banks. And then maybe the challenger banks, we’re at a slightly higher leverage point, say 65% LTV.
And really what that's meant is on one hand, when you have uncertainty, people need to borrow where they may have sold something. They may want to borrow slightly higher leverage. And when they are buying something, there's always a market for that type of leverage. There have been quite a lot of transactions happening in the smaller space rather than the massive space. So we've seen quite strong deal flow actually as a result.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, the geopolitical stuff is obviously always super interesting. This week in South Africa we had some company announcements that were well worth paying attention to. One was Santova, where trade between South Africa and the US seems to have basically collapsed, which is obviously really hurting their business because they work in supply chain logistics, trade, all of that. And they actually referenced that Europe is pretty much the highlight of their business right now, so that's quite interesting. They recently acquired a business in the UK called Seabourne that does a lot of sort of eCommerce linked logistics. So they're finding opportunity on that side.
And what is quite interesting, and obviously that's not property, but what is interesting is when you do look at the property sector, you tend to find that there are some big underlying investment trends that are driving these allocations of capital. So something that's become popular among the listed property funds is the Iberian Peninsula. That's kind of the new Eastern Europe. They're all running to Portugal and Spain. I'm not sure if it's because that's just a nice place to go on holiday to go and do a DD, but I think it's mainly because they like the euro and they like higher inflation environments where they can go and get that stability.
Another one that's interesting is Sirius Real Estate. They've been buying up some defence-focused properties in Germany. So there, obviously, the defence industry is doing really well. They're positioning themselves to get the properties.
So I guess my lesson from this is that at the end of the day, these property investment strategies tend to be a function of a broader thesis around what's going on in the market, some of the trends, some of what you're seeing out there. And then property is just one asset class to go and express that view, like many other asset classes out there.
James, I'm keen to understand from you what some of those major themes might be at the moment and how that's playing out in some of the property investments that you've put on the books recently. What are you guys seeing out (there specifically in the UK, I guess), and how is that impacting your choice of deals?
James Lightbody: We tend to be very granular, ground up. To your point, I think the world of “you can just spray across a sector” - we're not really in that world. That was the zero interest rate world where all numbers just went up, debt costs were zero. So anyone who kind of built a model around that is struggling. We came in really underwriting from the ground up, which has been beneficial.
The specific real estate trends - I mean it's all relative, too. It might not be that strong relative to say 10 years ago. Relative to a few years back, they may be very strong.
So for instance, a few years ago obviously the office was considered dead post-Covid. No one was ever going to work again. And so the office market was 50% oversupplied, no one would touch it. You did see cap rates move up materially, as a result. No one built anything for three years.
Now suddenly everyone's rushed back to work in the UK across the board, all the cities. London is seeing crazy rental growth. Even Canary Wharf is growing again, which people thought was dead. So you're seeing very strong rental growth. People can't get office space, it's very expensive to build new ones and they'll take a few years. We've been in the office market for a while, lending there, that's quite strong.
Similarly, if you look at costs like retail. Go back 10, 15 years - very similar story to South Africa. It was almost like buying a bond. That's where people went to shop, tracked inflation, number went up, there was no competition for those.
Online came around and sort of took a lot of that market share. Suddenly you needed a strong reason to actually go to the shops. You weren't just going to go there for a big brand. Cap rates went up, rents dropped, sector got just destroyed. And that was similar in the UK.
But what you're starting to see now is off lower-based valuations, you're starting to see a lot more retail experiences make sense. So it's some leisure experiences, some actually hospital-type things, even nurseries. You're starting to see all “reason for being” type leases come into retail.
Retail is really changing. It's no longer like a 30-year lease to the equivalent of Shoprite as an anchor and then fill up the corners with the expensive stuff. It's really people have to work for the footfall and bring it in. But when you do have high footfall, people still want to get out and do stuff. So actually that's seeing a resurgence.
And then you still are seeing strong warehouses. There was a big pull forward of logistics where everyone spiked. It kind of went back down and now it's following trend.
Quite interesting, but you have to break it down per asset class.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, James, that's been fantastic context in terms of a lot of the macro themes and it helps blend the headlines that we see out there versus what's happening on the ground. I think that's very valuable.
I want to bring Jodi into the discussion here because I know that you've got this UK fund and at the same time there's always the dynamic for South African investors where the rand has now strengthened a little bit versus where we were a while ago. What is investor behaviour looking like? Rand investors generally tend to be so countercyclical and they just don't take advantage of it when the currency is doing a lot better. So what does that dynamic look like and how are you finding positioning this UK fund and these UK opportunities to the investor subset that you're finding down in South Africa?
Jodi Slotsky: Thank you, guys, for having me on your show. Just to maybe take it back to the actual fund and the construct. So the deals or the strategy that James is referring to fits within our private debt strategy.
In terms of what our clients like… so we're still seeing a lot of our clients with appetite for offshore. Either they have externalised cash or they're still looking to externalise. I don't feel like maybe within our specific alternative sector that they're focused on when the rates are at a certain level, they want to take out money now. I think alternatives is very niche, so it follows a very specific bucket of capital.
So yeah, that's how our clients are currently seeing this specific fund. It's open-ended. It trades on a quarterly basis, so guys are able to trade in and out. We see a lot of our clients don't like to be locked in for long periods of time or, should I say, they don't like the idea of being locked in. But when it actually comes down to it, they don't mind being locked in or they don't use their redemption as they say up front that they would like to.
That's typically what we're seeing. We see this type of structure or this type of fund as an alternative to your cash in the bank or a fixed deposit where you're earning, if you have money in a Prime Saver account in the UK, you're earning around 2% - 3% in pounds and you're still, as a South African taxpayer, paying interest withholding tax at your maximum marginal tax rate. Whereas the way we're able to structure our fund through a company in Jersey, it's more tax efficient for an investor and therefore instead of paying interest or receiving interest and paying interest withholding tax, you're generating a dividend which is much more tax efficient in the form of 20% withholding tax.
So it offers quite a nice niche for investors and quite a nice diversification to a portfolio.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, Jodi, it reminds me a bit of my cats, you know – very happy to be in a box, but not if the lid is closed. So I think liquidity is exactly the same for investors. They want to know they can get out. They don't mind being there, but they want that one little flap open just in case they need to go.
It's quite interesting that you mentioned that it's not necessarily so rand-linked when you get these allocations from your investors. For me, that speaks to the fact that alternatives - yes, it's niche, but I also think it's gained a lot of acceptance in its target market, if that makes sense.
So people are almost saying, you know what, I'm going to have an allocation to alternatives and I'm going to keep doing it. Same way they would keep buying ETFs, they would keep buying whatever it is they're doing, they're going to keep allocating to alternatives. I think that's quite a feather in the cap of not just Westbrooke, but I think the entire alternatives market that has actually unlocked a lot of pretty good opportunities and built some track record.
James, that's guys like you out there taking this tax efficient structure and this need for yield and hard currency and everything else and going and doing some cool deals. So of course it's always nice to dig into some of the examples and obviously recognising that you can't give away specifics because your clients won't be super happy with you. Or, not so much your clients actually, more just the people you've done these transactions with. It's always interesting which side of that environment is your clients, the people who are investing or the people you're partnering with. I guess it's a little bit of both?
So what can you tell us about deals you've done in the UK market? Good examples, just to give listeners a flavour of what sort of stuff you're out there structuring and putting into this fund.
James Lightbody: Yeah, I think that actually is a very important point, particularly in the broad universe of private credit. Obviously there have been a few headlines by people who buy very abstract positions. In our case, we’re portfolio managing, but at the same time we are the actual lender. So we're structuring the deals. There's an actual property with security, it's not like there's potential for multipledging etc.
But two examples that I think are worth talking to, that also talk to the type of deal, but also how exactly we win these deals (because it is very much a competitive market, we're essentially playing much like a bank would in South Africa competing with other lenders for these deals).
So one good example is one we just completed recently - an office in Putney. So Putney, a lot of South Africans there, they'll probably know it, but just south of the Thames. Not like a pretty prime office market for London. It's not the West End, Bond Street or the City, but it's just sort of behind that. So very, very high quality. In this case it was actually a borrower that we worked with before another transaction.
The reason we managed to win this was because they had another lender lined up. It was a refurbishment of an old office building and they were making it brand spanking new, Grade A, very high quality, good amenities, has a rooftop deck over London - really nice, which occupiers need these days. Again, rents are very high for high quality stuff. For B-grade, C-grade stuff, no one wants it. So, very important to be in the right part of the sector.
They actually had a lender at a much cheaper rate lined up to refinance them for the development. But that lender had a few hiccups as often is the case in our, as I said, sub-50 million end of the market. They didn't have their money ready. A couple of CPs weren't right and this then came to us, who we worked with before on something and said “Look, if you can do this very quickly, if you can structure it the way we actually want, then it's yours.”
So, we kind of jumped into action, approved it in basically a week and then got the legals done like two weeks thereafter. Full team effort to get it done and it's structured in a way that there's like a first drawdown. Basically when the building finishes, the actual group that built it are taking a lease on the bottom floor. They guarantee part of the exposure also, and sign a lease on the bottom floor. So there's some income on day one. And there are two leases signed with very high-quality tenants that are busy moving in.
We do a further drawdown when those tenants move in. The leases are signed, but they haven't actually moved in yet. So another drawdown when they move in there. Then when they let the top floor, which may take a couple months, there's a further drawdown at that point. And the interest cover ratio, which is a key income cover against our interest, increases gradually through those phases.
So in some ways, no right to be doing this deal at the pricing we had, but really it was flexibility and speed which can still win the day at our end of the market.
Mohammed Nalla: James, the key takeaway for me on that was actually the quick turnaround time. I think kudos to you and the team there because not only do you add value for the person who needs the funding, but at the end of the day, we know that investors are looking for higher yields. And when you have that flexibility, it allows you to operate in a segment of the market where perhaps that gives you some more pricing flexibility. Do you think that's a fair comment?
James Lightbody: Yeah, I guess so. I guess there are a couple of things, how we managed to actually do this in this instance. Number one, it's very important having a team who’s very embedded on the ground. The only way you can make fast calls like this is if you're very certain on your underwrite and you can prove it to your investment committee. So our investment committee has to approve every single deal that we take through.
We knew multiple deals in the area that had been leasing up, so we knew all the market comparables for rentals. We knew what recent transactions were traded at. We knew various sponsors who were buying things in and around this area and what they would have bought this asset for.
So there were a number of ways we could get comfortable very quickly, where if you were actually just looking at from the outside, you may not have been able to move that fast. So I think that's almost purely as a lender side being able to do that.
But then sure, there are some lenders who are very restrained in what they're allowed to do. And that's more they might have a funding line which says no, you have to fit within this particular box, and that does mean they're more restrained and the pricing will be low as a result.
So yes, that high yield is then tied to a bit of flexibility also.
The Finance Ghost: And I think what works well here, James, is just having the team on the ground. Right? That's always been a big part of the Westbrooke offering. That has come through in the conversations we've had with the team historically. I was making a very tongue-in-cheek joke earlier about we're not talking to Dino today. But the truth of it is you go back and look through Magic Markets, we've spoken to a lot of team members at Westbrooke, which has been great. And it's because there are people on the ground pretty much everywhere that you operate.
So you get to understand these deals, you get to move quickly. You're not just sitting there doing desktop capital allocations to other funds. That was the point you raised about, there's a property there, you've seen it yourself, you've been there yourself, you understand the thing, and that lets you structure these drawdowns, etc. and understand the surrounding area and everything else. That's a big part of why this deal works for you, right, and how you manage to win these transactions?
James Lightbody: Yeah, absolutely. Our entire team is British. Outside of me, I'm the one South African there. And that's deliberate. Not that we're anti-South African, but we really want people who know the nuances of London. Every single street is quite different. They know all different parts of the UK, they have their own network of people.
And really what that's resulted in is essentially in our area of the market – which is all income-producing, low mid-market real estate – we know most of the sponsors there, we know all the brokers, all the brokers know we'll deliver. So when they have something that they think fits, they come to us first. They tell the other borrowers that we'll deliver. We can reference all the borrowers against each other. It means we can be more accurate on our pricing because we have more information than the rest of the market. So it does work in that circle that we end up winning more deals and then it carries on in the same way.
Mohammed Nalla: James, before I actually go back to Jodi, because I've got a couple of questions for Jodi as well, but I want to actually just pose a question back to you. Because you've mentioned obviously the impact of having a team on the ground and what that means for pricing, but also I'd like to unpack very quickly what that means for risk.
You've mentioned your loan-to-value ratios (and maybe you're willing to take on a little bit more risk than your conventional lenders – that might give you some pricing flexibility), but I'm just wondering how much of that is actually a direct result of the fact that your underwriting process is because you've got people on the ground that allows you to really understand the risk on a micro granular level. And if you could quantify that for us, typically what does your LTV ratio look like on these deals? Maybe even give us another case study, an example where maybe you had a lower or a higher LTV, how that translates into just giving that additional bump on returns to your clients?
James Lightbody: Yeah, on the underwriting side, it does help having a team on the ground, but really the investment committee which approves every deal is independent. And the two key external members on there - one was head of Investec UK's private bank for 20 years, so he knows almost every street of London. He knows every second deal that we bring in already. So, phenomenal knowledge. And the other party is head of one of the biggest advisors so knows intimately where deals are pricing and what the issues are in the market. So they're really important.
And it's not like we're deciding ourselves to approve something. It's quite a rigorous process we go through. We have to prove every single assumption you make. So you're making an assumption of leasing, you approve it with comparables. You’re making an assumption on value, you've got to prove it with comparables. You run five, six, seven different scenarios to show what happens if that lease falls off, how long it takes to let up, how long it takes to sell, making sure that our debt position is very robust.
But in terms of actual LTV, in this case, we're actually around 60% LTV. Depending on the different tranches, it could move up to 63% as we draw down the rest and then go down. Depending where the value sits, ICR ends up at about 1.6 times on that one.
Again, those are very good ratios because we move fast. We'll go as a max for very, very high quality, up to 70% LTV. But generally these days we're around 65% and the ICR is between 1.3 and kind of 1.5. Those are normally the ratios we're operating in.
The Finance Ghost: And I think what's interesting as well is that the transactions are not always loans directly into properties, right? Sometimes there's some holdco stuff, I mean we've talked about some of that before. So that's where you've got to be flexible around taking a portfolio view or taking an asset specific view.
That one example you've given us, there's such specifically structured drawdowns based on different milestones in the property. Other times you're looking at a whole portfolio of properties and you're looking at gearing ratios across all of them and trying to understand where you would sit on the capital stack, where that loan would be. That's a big part of what you do as well on that side, right?
James Lightbody: Yeah, exactly. So I think another good example maybe I can just talk to is another one I did with a borrower, this one outside of London. They actually operate on the South Coast - quite a beautiful part of the UK, very residential-heavy.
The borrower we worked with there, they've been building up the portfolio that we took - was most of the value that we lent under for the last 10 years. But they've been operating in the sector for 20 years before that. It's a very strong track record. And what exactly they're doing there now, they built up over this 10 year period this very granular portfolio worth roughly £70 million geared.
They've taken out one of these long, 20-year facilities you used to be able to get from insurers. I think you can get them now but not at the same rate. Kind of fixed for 20 years at 3.5% - 4%, very low fixed interest rate. And they don't want to mess with that because then it breaks the fix and then they have to pay big penalties.
Obviously lots of cash coming out of that portfolio, but they can't change the debt. So in this case they want to start up another portfolio that's similar but has slightly larger assets and higher quality assets - not high quality, just less small. That's a very bitty portfolio of small resi blocks, which is what they like but we prefer to fund against chunkier assets.
So the next portfolio they're buying retail assets, warehouse assets. Still residential, £1 - £2 million. And they asked if there was a way in which we could fund, at a level above the holding company, against new assets they were buying. And we'd still get first charge over those assets, but we'd also have secondary security over this other portfolio that had generated £4 million excess cash a year and had £40 million of excess NAV (Net Asset Value) in it.
We structured that facility initially relatively small, but it meant that we locked them in to grow to the future in a way that meant that we have various controls around the holding company that, to the extent the performance drops on those underlying assets, we essentially can sweep all the excess cash to our facility and repay it very quickly. But also we have first charge security over the new assets that are brought in.
You have multiple ways you can get your money back across a very granular portfolio, so you're very well secured to start with. And really we banked a way in which we can grow with them in the future and get more deals. And obviously the pricing is higher for structuring a deal like that.
Mohammed Nalla: I love that. I think you've given us some fantastic case studies. My key takeaway on this is really the value of those relationships. Because in both of those instances, it's clients that you've had on the book before, you've done deals with them. That bodes very well for your ongoing pipeline.
And then also the ability to structure the deal with multiple levels of security. That's really something that your investors should be very glad to hear.
Let's bring Jodi in here because I want to now try and synthesise a lot of this. We've discussed case studies, we've discussed the fund somewhat, we've touched on that. Jodi, at the end of the day, what is the value proposition that you put forward to your clients sitting in South Africa – or anywhere, pretty much? What is the value proposition for this UK fund?
James has touched on some of the technicalities, but if you were to synthesise this in like a quick, let's call it two or three liner, you know, no pressure there. How would this be pitched to a client that's considering investing in this as an asset class?
Jodi Slotsky: Sure. So I think taking it back, you were speaking to risk mitigation. I know James has mentioned two case studies, but important to mention that this fund has 41 (at the moment) of those underlying transactions. Your risk is spread across those different types of transactions within the real estate sphere.
They’re also different types of real estate – commercial, hospitality, retail, as James alluded to. So I think diversification is key.
The total AUM of the fund currently is north of £200 million. It's by far our biggest fund and definitely our flagship fund. I guess that's a large proposition. Westbrooke itself is one of the biggest investors in the fund. Financial alignment, as with everything at Westbrooke, is definitely key.
And I think lastly, just to mention access. So as an individual specifically sitting in South Africa, you don't typically have access to these types of transactions. A lot of the larger alternative asset managers don't take individual capital or client capital. I think it's really important that we're providing access to these types of transactions in a structure that allows certain advantages, as I mentioned earlier, specifically around the tax advantage.
I think the other key takeaway is really the return. James mentioned a lot around our pricing and flexibility. But ultimately for our investor, the fund has now a seven-and-a-half-year track record, generating currently, as at the last reporting date, around an 8% return in pounds net of fees - which is really a nice alternative to add to a client's portfolio.
Once again, lock-ins. No lock-ins, it's just a 6 or 12 month notice redemption if you choose to invest. Although the strategy is not to be able to take your money out when you need to (we prefer long-term capital), there still is that ability to have access to that capital.
Mohammed Nalla: Jodi, I think that's fantastic context. I mean, the diversification – that's very important. The extent of the deals that sit in the fund. So again, thumbs up on that one. The liquidity, if you want to call it that, again, for people that are just in this world, everyone's so used to instant liquidity. But in the private asset space, in the alternative space – even a three-to-six-month notice period, again thumbs up from me on that.
You also mentioned access. I think I want to just delve a little bit deeper into that particular point, because quite often, like you say, you just don't have access to these private market deals.
But then there's also the question of size. It's something we've unpacked with Dino in the past, but I want to land on this point with you specifically. I know with Westbrooke, you do have some direct clients and then you also plug into the investor advisor network that is out there. So, specifically when we're talking minimums – what is the minimum investment that Westbrooke would consider for this fund?
Because with an 8%+ yield in hard currency, that's very attractive. Certainly, if you’re kind of framing this on the risk metric close on quasi-cash – maybe slightly higher than that, maybe a bit of a liquidity premium coming through there. But what are we talking about in terms of minimums, and also practically, how can investors get exposure to this fund?
Jodi Slotsky: To access the fund it's either via a direct subscription (which essentially means you're acquiring a share in a Jersey Expert company) or via a platform.
So there are a multitude of different share classes ranging from USD or GBP. Obviously, as James mentioned, all the underlying investments are in the UK, so therefore the dollar share class is just a hedge against the pound.
There is an accumulation class or a distribution class. Distributions are paid out on a quarterly basis. And then lastly the 6- or 12-month notice redemption – there are no fund lock-ins.
Each one of these share classes has an ISIN code, Bloomberg tickers, and therefore widely available on different platforms such as Glacier, Saxo, Credo. And the minimums, through a direct subscription, is £100,000 or dollar equivalent. Through a platform (because we see platforms as aggregators) we're able to reduce the minimums to about £25,000.
We see a lot of our wealth advisor clients using platforms – it’s a lot easier for them to trade and get consolidated reporting – and a lot of our ultra-high-net-worth family offices trade through direct subscription. But it really is just a factor of what works best for you.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, so definitely more suitable to the sophisticated investor environment which we like to think is of course the audience on Magic Markets. We know you're out there, so you know, if this is something that interests you, the usual caveats apply – speak to your financial advisor, speak to your wealth manager.
If this is something that you're interested in, they'll probably know about it already. If not, get them to go and check out the Westbrooke website and give this some serious thought.
James, you've been a busy guy doing deals on that side and Jodi, you've certainly been busy dealing with the sheer amount of interest I think in alternative assets. So well done to both of you. Hopefully you will at least have a bit of a break later this year as we start to wind down. And from our side, just thank you so much for coming onto the show and talking us through some of the stuff.
To the listeners, as I say, if you're interested, go and check out the Westbrooke website, go follow them on the socials, and you'll be able to see what they're up to. You can learn more about the funds and yeah, James, Jodi, thank you so much for your time.
Moe, you and I will be back next week to talk about probably something other than UK private property. We don't know what yet, but I don't think it'll be that.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, of course, there's always something interesting happening in the markets. What I will do, maybe as a parting comment (and I'm going to almost volunteer James's and Jodi's time here, because the Westbrooke team have always been so accessible) is if you go onto the website: find the team members, reach out to them. If you have more detailed questions, they are very receptive to hearing those questions and answering those questions. We just don't get the time to discuss all of the complexities that might actually come to you once you've digested some of the content on the show. It's only half an hour there or thereabouts, so reach out to the team at Westbrooke. I can tell you they are very accessible and they will be happy to address some of your questions.
Jodi, James, thanks so much for being on the show.
James Lightbody: Thanks so much.
Jodi Slotsky: Thanks for having us!
Mohammed Nalla: Let us know what you thought of the show. Hit us up on social media. It's @MagicMarketsPod, one word, @FinanceGhost and @MohammedNalla all on X, or go and find us on LinkedIn. Pop us a note on there.
We hope you've enjoyed this. Until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and cheers.
The Finance Ghost: Ciao.
