Episode Transcript
The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 247 of the Magic Markets podcast. Today we're going to be talking about some pretty interesting stuff in the property space and how to invest in that. It's unfortunate that this is episode 247. 274 would be a lot more appropriate because our guest today - one of our guests today - is Mornay Visser from 27four Capital Partners, also an ex-Springbok, pretty cool. And Connie Bloem from Mesh - Connie, do you have any cool sport histories? I know that Moe doesn't, so I don't even need to ask him, but do you have anything you need to disclose about representing South Africa or anywhere else at the highest level? Maybe an island somewhere? You tracked some ancestry? Anything? Anything at all.
Connie Bloem: Now I have to upweight my coolness factor here, Ghost, you are destroying my street cred. Mornay is our only ex-sports star here.
The Finance Ghost: I'm hearing a strong no, that Mornay is our only ex-sports star on this podcast. Welcome, Mornay. It's lovely to have you.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, Mornay. I'm feeling the pressure. It's why I've kept very quiet in this entire intro is no sporting history, no real credentials to speak about other than in financial markets, which I guess occupies me 24/7. Episode 247 - and glad to have you on from 27four, as well as Connie.
I'm going to jump right in because what we're talking about this week is something that I'm very passionate about. I know Ghost has had some views that are skeptical around property markets. Maybe in the direct property investment space. It’s a space I…
The Finance Ghost: The buy-to-let an apartment space. I must be honest. Let's just be clear. Moe has a lot of experience with that. A lot of pain.
Mohammed Nalla: Lots of pain. And I guess that's why we're not talking about buy-to-let apartments or residential property just in and of itself. We're speaking about an entire myriad of new opportunities that are arising, because we are now seeing a partnership between 27four and Mesh that effectively allows investors, retail investors, institutional investors, as well, to get direct access to some direct property investments that you have.
And we want to unpack that, because we want to understand: are they getting exposure to the equity? Are they getting exposure to the debt? What do the yields look like? What is the actual investment? I think with that as the backdrop, and again with a caveat that it’s a sector I really do like - with that, let's jump right in.
Connie, I'm going to come to you first on this because you can tell us around how this opportunity is actually framed within the overall Mesh ecosystem. Our listeners are familiar with some of the interesting stuff we've spoken about with Mesh that ranges from gold, you've got a whole bunch of direct investments as well. Where does this actually fit within the overall Mesh ecosystem and value proposition?
Connie Bloem: I think it's a good question because we have been speaking around many of the assets that form what we would term to be a model portfolio. And I think a thing that I've been confronted with in the market a lot is that people think that a model portfolio is only for retail clients. What a model portfolio effectively gives you is a range of assets that you can invest into in different percentages to form whatever your mandate is.
When we look at property, it's not the actual property that we’re tokenising and bringing forth to the market. And this is a place where we need to bust that myth as well, because a lot of people have gone about it in the wrong way. So what we are listing here with Mornay and 27four is an equity exposure into an underlying property transaction. And whether that underlying property transaction is a direct property, a fund or basket of properties is where it becomes very, very exciting. It gives our investors and the people on Mesh exposure to a very needed asset class which is your property asset class which we all should have some form of exposure to, but is traditionally very hard to get to.
And so when we look at our retail client base, we all know that we may be joking with Ghost and Moe here around having some leasing or rental exposure that we all know is not an investment Moe, but that you actually generally only have your own house as a property investment that you have in your portfolio, or the other option that you have is REITs listed on exchange. And this is a very real and very cool alternative to bringing that exposure into your portfolio.
The Finance Ghost: I mean you would think that we all know that a buy-to-let investment is not an investment. But yet here we have Moe who still has his apartment in Joburg. Here we are years later. I think it's his pain trade and he just can't bring himself to get out of it. It's a mystery to all of us. But I think Connie, more importantly, and back to what you guys are busy with there. It's equity exposure into property, so this is like buying a share in the fund, effectively, it's just tokenised on Mesh? This is not buying a very small piece of a shopping centre. I just want to be super clear on that. There are multiple properties that sit underneath this tokenised asset.
Connie Bloem: That is very true. But we have two assets that we can talk about today. So the one, a direct exposure to a commercial property that Mornay can speak a lot more eloquently to, and the other one is exposure to a fund of properties as well. And the blend of the two is a really interesting way to go to market for us as well.
Mohammed Nalla: Mornay, maybe let's jump straight into that because I think that there are two value propositions on the table here. Again, one is direct to a specific project, the other is a portfolio. Let's maybe start off with the portfolio first and then maybe move to the specific project. I think that's probably a nice way to look at it certainly because Connie's kind of framed this in terms of a model portfolio having exposure to property as an asset class effectively. Tell us more about what you've got on the table.
Mornay Visser: Yeah. Thank you Moe and Ghost, I would like you to allow me to take a couple of steps back because I think we need to provide some context to the listeners and potential investors about the journey, how we arrived here - today we speak about two specific assets that we want to present to the retail investors through the Mesh platform.
I think it's important to look at the capital partners, 27four Capital Partners, what we do and where we come from and our current environment we operate in. We are operating in the private markets and for the last 15 or 20 years I've been originating and my team members in various propositions have originated and managed assets and risk on behalf of institutional clients. So someone like myself has never had exposure to retail clients. Obviously if you go on a see-through basis right at the end there's a retail client or even if a pension fund is allocating funds to us, there's people at the back-end in a retail capacity or as individuals. But our direct exposure has always been to the institutional clients.
Now in that, we've met with Mesh the last two years, and the reason why private markets and then within private markets there's various segments - you've got your private credit and then you've got your private real estate - and here we're speaking about private real estate tonight. But that is not something the average man in the street has had exposure to in any way, the last 20 years or 10 years, whatever you want to call it, because it's not frictionless. It's difficult to get the individual exposure to those markets and to those assets and Mesh has come along and provided us a frictionless way to see if we can get some of the retail clients into having exposure to these very specific assets that we're going to discuss now.
So that's what it's about. And also one can't be in isolation - the fact that I've never managed direct retail clients money and only institutional capital is you also read in the press about these private markets and you read it in the press about diamonds, people allocating money to diamonds, to cattle, to fractions within the building, to creches and all that. So you read about that and you say, but look, if I can find a way where I've served institutional clients in an extremely rigorous investment process in a very transparent environment, if I can take that and our ability to originate unique assets that don't correlate with the normal indexes, if I can take that to the retail client in a seamless way and Mesh can do that for me, why don't we share that with the retail clients? Surely they can also have access to these unique assets that we've originated.
Because we do - like the bank - we do see a lot of opportunities in the market. And then obviously through our skillset, we get exposure to the better ones through our rigorous investment process, through our investment philosophies, through our principles that we apply on a day-to-day basis, that should provide the comfort to retail clients. And that's what we want to take through Mesh to the retail market.
And we've chosen two tangible assets, properties, obviously we've got many other assets in the portfolio, but we've taken something where we can take the investor through our investment rationale step-by-step and provide them the necessary comfort. So this is not an asset that we want to push onto the retail client. This is something that we've already underwritten, and we thought this is something that would excite people. It's something that's not available every day. And then we can take them through our rationale and then they can decide in their own time, yes we do believe this is a great opportunity from an investment perspective.
The Finance Ghost: So Mornay, that is really interesting. You've raised there a lot of alternative assets and that's obviously a huge growth area. Internationally, you can read any of the fund management reports, you can do whatever you like - you'll find that alternative assets have grown a lot. And one of the things I wanted to ask you today, and I think you might have already answered it, that is the one thing we have on the JSE is a very vibrant REIT and property sector. There's a lot for people to choose from already on the JSE. So the question is: the appeal of this in a world where you have all of that already to choose from? If you want more property exposure, I guess this would probably be part of maybe your alternatives allocation where you're looking and saying, okay, what else is out there in my portfolio that I can look at doing? So that's probably not a bad portfolio management way of thinking about this.
But even beyond that, how does this investment stack up versus buying just a REIT of some description on the JSE? Because we are quite spoiled for choice. It's one of the areas on our local market where we have a lot going on. Can't be said for every sector.
Mornay Visser: No, Ghost, I fully agree with you. The first thing we look at, obviously all our investments needs to be fundamentally sound. And then second to that we need to make sure that we do - if you look at the metrics, that the probability of outperformance is real. We can do that because we're looking at one or two investments or one or two underlying assets. So that's quite easy.
But you are correct, we've got a very good performing REIT sector on the JSE. But should one want to be negative, you must agree with me, it's very volatile. And that's what private markets bring to it - we take that volatility out of it and you take that correlation out of it. We've gone through the markets, all of us the last 20 years, so sometimes just because of an event in the world, REITs are falling, but nothing is happening to the net operating income or nothing happens with the fundamental side of that REIT itself. LTV might be stable, everything might be in place, but because of an external event, either local or international or market event, the investor is losing money.
That low vol and non-correlation, but still have exposure to the same fundamentals of equity, of capital growth. That's what we want to bring to the market.
Connie Bloem: I think to add to that, and Mornay has put it so eloquently, if one would like to be negative, and I'm sometimes a bit more overtly negative about these matters because this is something that we care about deeply from measures to open up the capital market and make it more transparent - is my criticism around a REIT structure is very few people actually know what's going on in there, what are the management fees, why are the things not being valued correctly, what is actually going on in the management of those assets. I think the listing structure actually reputationally protects a lot of these REITs in not a very transparent and fair manner.
Maybe I'm overt on my criticism here because one of the reasons why we chose to partner with Mornay and 27four is that there is accountability towards them from a company perspective and a holding perspective, to be transparent with how they manage these assets, how they step in for the investor, and how they also take their fees out of the mix because rightfully so, they manage the asset, they should be taking some fees in that. But the REIT structures are not incentivised to do so. It's actually a bit confusing for me sitting from the outside. Why is the REIT market so dynamic? Because I don't understand it.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, I want to come in and maybe just change track a little bit here because I still want to understand what the investment value proposition position is. When you're talking real estate, a lot of people invest in real estate for the yield, some people use that as a bond proxy, for example. There are some people who can't invest in bonds and earn interest. They might be interested in property as an asset class almost as a supplement or a replacement to their fixed income exposure as well.
What are we actually speaking about with the two offerings that are coming onto the Mesh platform? Will this token effectively offer investors a yield, or are they investing solely for capital growth? Is it a combination of the two? Can we start drilling down into some of the building blocks to better understand, unpack, what exactly investors are looking at here?
Mornay Visser: I'll dig a bit deeper in there. We're bringing two opportunities to the market and it's a blend of capital and income growth.
The first one is a company that will have exposure to 17 convenient retail centres and of those 17 convenience centres, 9 of them are already trading and 8 are in construction. And what we follow there is a brownfield and a greenfield strategy. Greenfield is quite easy. It's something new, it's expansion and it's a new centre being built. And there you follow the accelerated expansion of the leading retailers in South Africa and we all know who they are. That's the one side.
On the brownfields side, it's quite interesting, I've had exposure probably for the last 10 years in the brownfields and I'm blessed enough that it worked out well in the brownfield. What's happened is you've got centres that are in great locations that were built 20-years ago, 25-years ago, but the dynamics around those centres have changed. You take a great location and you have a non-functional or not optimised asset on that specific location because of the change in dynamics and all the roads, the people and all that. Then you take the expertise and skills of the management team and you redesign that property and you optimise that by making it more accessible. You make sure that your anchors are well positioned, you make sure that your line shops are optimised and they fit in well with your anchors and all that. And you get a re-rating on that property. That's quite a low-risk strategy and it's quite defensive.
The other thing about it is we use the word convenience centres – these are not your large malls, it's not your small ones, it's between 5,000 and 15,000 squares and that's where people go for their daily needs. And that's where you get the Woolies food, you get the Checkers, you get the Dis-Chem, you get the Clicks, you get one or two restaurants. That's the look and feel for that strategy. And as I said it's been quite defensive and the returns since we've been in this from 2016, even in Covid if you do the benchmarking against the SAPY, low volatility, not correlated to the market itself and the performance of the JSE - and a good performance. And we want to continue with that strategy.
The next one is where we have a very iconic building in Stellenbosch which is part of the Western Cape strategy where we believe there's a demand for retail there. That's a mixed-use centre, it will be roughly 10,000 squares GLA and it will have 2,800 office component, 3,500 retail and 3,200 apart-hotels. Once again we can take you through the investment rationale. We mitigate our risk before we start the process by making sure that our pre-lets are in place. That after offices, 80% of that is taken up by the regional office of a well-known bank. The retail is 90% fully let with I can say now Checkers will be in there and Clicks will be in there. And the 3200 apart-hotels is on the supply and demand of the uniqueness of Stellenbosch where you look at tourists and also more specific inland visitors within the winter seasons and all that.
Connie Bloem: I know we all hate the traffic in the Western Cape, but we would all love to be invested into it. This specific location is in such a desirable spot there in Stellenbosch that I think that many people will actually be driving past that and telling themselves, yes, I wish I could get a piece of that. And now is the opportunity that people can actually step into that space and invest in it. We've taken a lot of care with both of these transactions and you see that the one is more diversified kind of exposure with a multitude of assets involved in that, so that is when you don't want a single exposure and you're looking forward to not having that single default risk. And on the other side, it's a space in South Africa that is seeing massive amounts of growth and especially in the Stellenbosch area, most of us could not afford houses in that space. But if someone can actually put down a commercial property and you can get the benefits of that kind of investment for us up in the Gauteng area that only can reach the Stellenbosch areas like once a year, maybe over December when we take the traffic from Sandton down to Camps Bay. This is a good alternative as well.
The Finance Ghost: I'm going to jump in. I've had a lot of history with the property sector on the JSE and I worked in corporate finance about 10 years ago when we had that big bubble where REITs could wake up in the morning and raise a gazillion rand. And I wasn't at Java. I always used to read those announcements and think, wow, I wish I was working at Java because that looks easy in comparison. No disrespect to anyone who was at Java at the time, a lot of hard work went into making it what it was. But it just seemed like basically they could wake up in the morning, phone a few friends and make incredible money.
But it's because property is cyclical like so many sectors out there. And it's interesting to see this pickup in capital raising activity among the REITs. We just saw Vukile recently with an oversubscribed boobuild. That's a high-quality REIT. I don't mind too much seeing companies like that doing oversubscribed raises.
Connie Bloem: It was beautiful.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, R2.65 billion I think, they originally planned for R2 billion. I'm quite deeply invested in the property ETFs myself in my tax-free savings account because then I get the benefit of the yield as tax-free, which is great, but obviously that has a limit. I do have quite an interest in this space. I'm funny like that. I rent my house, I won't own a buy-to-let apartment, but I'm happily invested in REITs. That's just the way I like to manage my life.
Mornay, it sounds like when you talk about the properties that you're looking at, there's quite an active management strategy to them and trying to improve them, which sounds quite private equity-esque. Given the sophistication of the audience on Magic Markets, I think they'll understand this, which is to say, well, I can go and buy a listed property fund on the JSE. It's kind of giving me mid-to high-single digit yield. It's probably growing at roughly inflation. Those are kind of the metrics - there are some exceptions - in terms of the hurdle rate that you look at for these investments.
What sort of metrics get you out of bed? And again, this is not a promise to investors. All of this - we'll talk about this just now - all of this will be in the regulatory documentation that is so important with these kind of investments. But just in terms of how you guys invest, what sort of hurdle rates do you look at? How do you think about the world in that regard?
Mornay Visser: Yeah, Ghost, once again, one has to take one step back and understand and I agree with you, you got to be a contrarian if you're in private markets. We don't go in one direction. There is an element of being opportunistic, I'm not going to lie to you. So we really look for those diamonds in the markets and then if you take it to another principle is we do follow highly reputable promoters out there, highly reputable owners or co-investors with us. The ticket sums of these are quite large, so we need co-investors with that.
But that's - before we look at anything, we look at the track record, we look at 30 years, we look at the people that's been through 2008, we look at the people that's been through those big events in 2015 and all that. And also the people that can execute. You still have something that needs to be built. You still have construction risk. You still have to have the ability to convince your key tenants and all that.
Before we look at property, we look at all those fundamentals and then we stack it together. And you look at your leases and you look at your escalations and we would like to – roughly - we would like to be north of 15% IRR on a consistent basis.
It's like when I speak about private markets, I can't validate private credit by bashing the bank all the time. I'm there because of the bank, but I'm sometimes with the bank, but sometimes feed off their inefficiency. And the same with the REITs. I'm not there to bash the REITs. This is opportunistic. This is where we really think we've carved out opportunity with partners that's fundamentally sound. The investment rationale makes sense and we are happy to share that with retail clients for the first time ever, we haven't shared this with retail clients and Mesh has convinced us rightfully so that they can do it in a way that complements us too.
Those are important matters. But I did say to you, and I said, to repeat myself earlier, I did say if I can't illustrate contractually on the outperformance of the REIT, why would someone participate with this? Then I agree, then go and buy your REIT on a JSE because you've got excellent management companies or management teams there, they've got long track records and they've illustrated that they can perform.
Just the last comment is, remember also there's some weakness in private markets and this is the illiquidity. People, even myself, you don't want to put your money in something that's locked up for 10 years because there are events in everybody's life and there is a liquidity need. And that's one of the reasons why we haven't approached the retail market with a lot of fury in the past and focused on the institutional market when it comes to investors. That's what Mesh can bring to us, that secondary market. So now for someone that has a family event or that needs liquidity for something to happen, they can through Mesh create that liquidity and they can sell their ownership that's in digital format.
Mohammed Nalla: I just want to jump in and maybe try and start pulling all of these strings together, synthesise what we've spoken about. Obviously we understand, with Mesh, a lot of the ethos of what the company is trying to do is broaden accessibility to retail clients. It's not exclusive to retail clients. I think if institutional clients want to invest on the Mesh platform to get access to that secondary market liquidity, they can definitely do that as well. I think that's the overarching narrative from Mesh perspective and doing that in a cost-effective manner as well.
A couple of things, Mornay, you've almost pre-empted some questions I had, is when you're looking at direct properties, you're generally looking at a long lead time on the project. You've mentioned this very exciting Stellenbosch project. Let's tick a couple of boxes there. You've got solid anchor tenants, you've mentioned one of the local banks, you've mentioned some of the big retailers. And what I quite like just personally around that project is even though it's a single project, you also - because it's multi-use - you're getting exposure to apart-hotels which have different dynamics to retail. And so that gives you an interesting mix, even though it's a standalone project.
Now where I want to actually go with this is I just want to understand what is the actual lead time on that specific project? For how long is it currently being built, how long until it's built? What is a typical investor? If I were investing in this as an institution and I were looking at the full lifecycle, what is that term? And then lastly, what are we talking of in terms of minimum investment sizes? Because we speak about accessibility, certainly when we look at other players in the private markets, those ticket sizes can still be quite chunky. If you can just unpack some of those core building blocks as we kind of try and wrap up and pull all of this together.
Mornay Visser: I'm going to leave the ticket size to Connie, but I'll address some of your other important questions. The first one is you've got a lead time of 18 months here. Construction will start in February next year. The SDP has been approved and all that, so that's 18-month construction time and we'll start trading in this time about 2027, looking at 18-months construction. And once again Moe, because it's contractional agreements and you've got your escalation, you've got your rental per square metrics and all that, you take a haircut on the forecasting of the apart-hotels and all that, you can work out a low-road scenario and a high-road scenario. So that's quite stable.
I would say for investment like this, it's still long-term. Although we created liquidity from Connie, I think someone that wants to go into this investment and although the liquidity is there, I wouldn't say it's a four-year or five-year. Typically you look at the J-curve on property, I would say from experience you're in the money from year seven onwards. That's when you really make exponential return on your own internal IRR as investors. The liquidity is there, and what we've seen and you as knowing the market even better than me, people don't want to use the liquidity but they want to know it's there. It's like an insurance policy almost. So that's what we're trying to create with that.
Mohammed Nalla: Connie, I'm not going to let you get away with the ticket size question. So I want to understand this as an investor if I'm keen on either one of these, there are two options on the table - one a diversified portfolio, the other a direct investment in the Stellenbosch development - what are the ticket sizes for those? What does the cost structures look like and where can investors actually find more information? The detail, where can they find this? Can they find that on Mesh’s website?
Connie Bloem: I'm going to answer your question twofold, Moe. I'm going to directly answer it and then I'm also going to tell you a story because I think the story is a very important part as well.
Firstly, on the ticket size on both of these investments, we're looking at around R10,000 minimum size on the trade. Obviously don't let that anchor you. You can go above that if you want to and then post primary market that's obviously on a willing buyer, willing seller basis and that will be traded as the equity valuation at stage or according to the market demand at that time.
I think Mornay is incredibly kind to Mesh today. But I have not told you guys the story around how I actually met Mornay originally and why we decided that he is a good person for us to work with from a Mesh perspective. Because as Ghost and Moe knows, we’re very, very picky at Mesh to actually call someone a partner, specifically that word is a reserved word in our dictionaries because we’re looking for people that have a similar dream to ours in the market. The first time that I met Mornay it was on a very serious conversation on a different unrelated client to the one that we were talking about today. And on that call, I thought he was the strictest manager that I've ever seen in my life because he was so on point and he had his questions going through X, Y and Z and he didn't let us off the hook until could actually talk about the market fundamentals in that conversation.
He says that we convinced him to list his assets, but in many of these instances he's actually guided us as to the best structure out in the market. And through that I've gotten a very deep appreciation for both his organization 27four, but also himself and his team around the care that they take with constructing some of these assets and being very clear and transparent around how they look after each investment. It’s not just that primary investment where they get the money and then they’re off to the races, they truly take care across the full life-cycle of this asset.
That being said, when we then start looking at how they manage this asset and how they then construct it is both of these assets go out into the market through what we call an SPV structure, a special purpose vehicle. That's what you're investing into and that's holding the underlying of these assets. You are going to be investing in an equity class, which is not you’re A-class equity. But the management of this team will be sitting with the A-class shares which will give them the right to a management fee that is disclosed throughout the construct of this asset and throughout the marketing of that asset. That is a fair approach to the market. That is incredibly transparent way of managing an asset like this.
But when it comes to Mesh, you're used to our structure. We don't do any fees other than our trading fees towards our retail clients because these assets are new to market, newly minted. I like that term, freshly-minted. Our investors don't pay for the access to this asset, but then the secondary market they will be paying their general 0.4% trading fee on the equity. But primary market, it's a first-come first-served basis and we want you to invest in that asset. But as always that is very clearly stated and marked on the trade itself. And on our website which Moe has mentioned is app.mesh.trade.
The Finance Ghost: And Connie, can you just give us a sense of when the formal documentation will be available where investors can find it, the prospectus, all the normal regulatory stuff?
Connie Bloem: Yeah, sure. We are going to be listing these assets the first few weeks of November. Our clients would be able to sign up on that end, so keep an eye out on our newsletter, keep an eye out on our website. We have constructed a space where you can register yourself as well on our website and we'll make sure that that's also linked in the description of this podcast as well.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, Connie, thanks. I'll let Moe add anything he wants to add to this piece. I guess from my side - and obviously the usual speak to your financial advisor stuff always applies - but some of the stuff I look at when I look at property is stuff like the issue price relative to NAV, what sort of yield expectations you're going to get, what the capital growth expectations are - obviously in the Western Cape that's generally quite good - stuff like convenience retail has actually been a really strongly performing asset class, so that's good. Liquidity you always have to think about, and I think Mornay has given a very honest appraisal there that this is a long-term investment. Don't go into this thinking you're going to make a quick buck and then go away. That's probably never the way to think about property unless you're buying into a structurally cheap market. The time to do that was a couple of years ago on the JSE, if you missed it then you missed it. That time will come again at some point, but that's not now. And obviously think about diversification - I guess if you're already sitting with a lot of exposure to property, you need to think if this is a good thing to add to your portfolio or if you are maybe underexposed property, then this is a nice way to add some property exposure to your portfolio. Size allocation, that's always important and I would say treat this as part of an alternatives allocation in a portfolio because that's essentially what this is.
Moe, I don't know if you want to add anything to that as we look to wrap up and send Connie and Mornay on their way?
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, Ghost, I think you've touched on all of the key points. I mean I'll go and keep an eye out for those documents. Obviously investors would want to look at what's the LTV that might be sitting inside some of these SPVs. They'd want to also understand what the drawdown looks like in terms of the cash flow because quite often in private markets, the drawdown is staggered over a period of time. And again, these are just kind of educational snippets out there. If you are a listener that's not been familiar with some of the work we've covered here on Magic Markets, on private markets, go and have a look at that. That'll tell you what you need to look out for in the documents.
Maybe as a parting comment, I want to actually just say I'm pleasantly surprised by your minimum size at R10,000, simply because a lot of the stuff we've seen in the private market space comes in with a ticket price for around a million rand, and that flies solidly in the face of making this accessible to retail investors. So kudos to Mornay and Connie at 27four and Mesh respectively for actually doing what they say on the box, making this accessible to retail clients. I'm going to be watching quite keenly because it is a sector I do enjoy. I like this and I think that Stellenbosch property, that certainly does sound very interesting. Going to go and have a closer look at that.
Unfortunately, that's where we're going to wrap the show this week. Hit us up on social media. Let us know what you thought. It's at @MagicMarketsPod, @FinanceGhost and @MohammedNalla. We will also post links to Mesh's website on the transcript to the show. Go and check that out.
Connie, Mornay, thanks so much for joining us on Magic Markets. And again, we hope to see you back in time with an update on how this is doing. We'll give you some time to actually raise those funds and then maybe we'll ping you again sometime in the new year to see how that's gone?
The Finance Ghost: Thanks, Mornay. Thanks, Connie.
Mornay Visser: Thanks, guys. Thanks.
Connie Bloem: Pleasure.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial Advisor. Mesh Trade SA (Pty) Ltd is a licensed financial services provider, FSP number 53710, and an accountable institution registered with the Financial Intelligence Centre.
