Episode Transcript
The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 238 of Magic Markets. We're here with Connie Bloem of Mesh.Trade and you've been hearing from Connie a few times now on Magic Markets. They are doing some really cool stuff in the blockchain space and I must say, in more and more of my conversations in the South African market, Mesh is actually coming up. So it's great to hear more people doing stuff with you - and it's coming up very organically, so that shows a lot of traction in the South African market, which is nice to see, Connie. Well done for that.
But before I say hello to you, let me welcome my partner in crime, all the way from Canada, Moe. Thanks as always. I listened to a podcast the other day where the one host thanked the other and the one replied, yes, thank you for me joining my own show. I always feel that way now when I thank you for being on Magic Markets - it's like, thank you for arriving for the show we do together. But anyway, thank you nonetheless.
Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, thank you for me being on my own show. It reminds me of a South African politician, she'll go unnamed but said by the powers vested in myself by myself or something like that.
It's always fun being on the show. I'm really excited about having Connie back on the show on Magic Markets because there's actually been a lot going on behind the scenes at Mesh. I mean, we've done a lot with Mesh already. We showcased your gold launch a little while ago and that's been fantastic. The timing on that was absolutely spot on. And then behind the scenes, we've spoken to you about a whole bunch of stuff, we’re speaking to you again simply because there's just so much going on. And what we want to touch on today are two things: one is there's a lot of newsflow around stablecoins, there's the new GENIUS Act in the US and I'm told that Mesh has a series of stable coins either already operational or soon to be operational. So that's really exciting. I want to unpack that for our listeners. And then the other one is linked to gold - maybe it's the poorer cousin of gold, but it's a silver backed token. And again, I'd be remiss to not mention something like this. Everyone knows how much I like gold. Maybe I like silver a little bit less. But with those two exciting, let's call them work streams underway at Mesh, Connie, welcome back onto Magic Markets.
Connie Bloem: Thank you guys also for hosting me, not on my own podcast, but on your podcast here today. Always enjoy being back. And like I say, every time when we say bye to each other, there's always more going on in Mesh. There's always something cooking in our kitchen, and currently it's stablecoins. And to your point, Moe, our cousin, the silver token as well, has made its appearance.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, Moe was never going to get too excited about something that isn't gold, let's be honest. But we're definitely going to talk about silver as well for those who are interested in that asset class. I think what we'll also end up talking about with silver later is just how quickly you got this thing to market, because I think that really does talk to Mesh's ability to execute. And I suspect that's also why I keep hearing you coming up in conversations in the South African market with people looking for, shall we say, innovative ways to access capital at the end of the day. So well done to you for that.
But I think let's dive into stablecoins and maybe for the benefit of the people listening to the show and the people like me who aren't necessarily crypto experts, I feel like we kind of just need to start with the most basic question of all, which is what is a stablecoin as we know it today? I mean, there are different types, and I know it gets super complicated, but what is a stablecoin?
Connie Bloem: I can dive into the technicalities, but let me rather tell you a story. And the story was when the crypto world was basically confined to this thing that we now all know as bitcoin, where that was the only baby token out in the world. And we had a problem. The problem was that the price of very specifically bitcoin was fluctuating incredibly over a day. A lot of people were saying: but you should be able to buy something with your bitcoin! The analogy of buying a book or buying your pizza, go buy a cup of coffee with bitcoin as a currency, which was just not practical because the price would go up and down considerably throughout the day. The one moment you could buy your coffee for R2 and the next moment you would be buying your coffee for R50. I don't know about you, but I quite like my coffee reasonably priced and hot, so let's not struggle here.
People needed a way to transact in this world and we came up with a concept called a stablecoin. But it literally translates into a stable value asset. And the first use case here was literally let's put currency into a bank account. Let's put rands into a bank account and have a token. That is one rand equals one token. And we can transact with it because one rand will always be worth one rand. And that's where the term stable coin comes from. Stable value, the price doesn't go up and down so I can buy my coffee for the right price.
Now that is where started out a few years and the stablecoins then became the way that we started stepping into this digital world of crypto and tokens and all sorts of weird things. But it's no longer just that. It has come to be known as the way that we conduct payments, the way that we trade with each other, the way that we denominate assets. So stablecoins is a massive industry, but it also refers to anything that has an underlying value - an asset that is kept safely in accounts, securely in a vault that I can refer to. So - where is that asset and how can I refer back to it? And that in the general sense is now called stablecoins. And we see things such as currencies, yield-bearing currencies, gold, silver, all forming part of this world called stablecoins.
The Finance Ghost: So before Moe asks a much smarter question than me, it almost sounds like it's just, it's cryptocurrencies in the true form, right? I mean that's what the term has always been – cryptocurrency – but the problem's always been the value fluctuates like crazy. And that's the coffee example you've used. It almost feels like stablecoins takes it one step closer to actually being a currency in the traditional sense rather than an investment, a long-term inflation hedge and all of those other things.
Connie Bloem: Yes, it gives us the ability to quite simply transact with each other because what is a currency other than a holder of value or exchange of value? So it is that true sense of that world in the digital economy.
Mohammed Nalla: Connie, I think it's just so important that we build out some of these foundational frameworks for our listeners because a lot of people might not be familiar with stablecoins. I think that you've explained that quite nicely. And again, I guess it evolved out of a need for the world that got created alongside the fiat monetary system, of normal conventional currencies and assets and so forth. There was the crypto world.
And in the crypto world we needed something that was stable, that enabled people to transact, hence the birth of the stablecoin. Now obviously what's happened more recently is that there's been a lot of focus on stablecoins. The US Government needs someone to buy US Treasuries. And so the new administration has been very smart in effectively getting this GENIUS Act, as they call it, across the line. It's very long acronym. GENIUS actually stands for something, I'm not going to even venture down that road. But effectively this seeks to regulate stablecoins.
And what I found interesting, and I want to drill down on this because it's going to go into some of the talking points I want to unpack with yourselves on this show, is in the US the GENIUS Act serves to effectively regulate stablecoins but it also prohibits the issuers of from offering a yield to the investor. So it's saying, here you go, it's effectively a tokenised dollar, it's a crypto fixed dollar stablecoin. But you can't offer any interest or yield to your investors on the back of this. And this differs fundamentally to some of the other stablecoin, let's call it developments in other geographies.
So can we maybe just unpack that - what's going on in the regulatory system? I know in the US the reason for that, for not offering the yield, is so that from a regulatory perspective, stablecoins get carved out and then they don't get confused with securities and other stuff that's out there. I know the intent of it, but does that not hobble the intent of maybe offering money market type yields to investors in, or investors or traders, whoever they may be, in the stablecoin ecosystem?
Connie Bloem: I think you’re on the money with your comment there. So maybe from a global – look, what is happening from a regulatory space is the crypto community - and if I can take this myth out of the heads of people, is the crypto community is not an unregulated community. We're all regulated at this stage. We have financial service providers licenses. So we have stepped into that regulatory space and we've chosen to become trusted.
The regulatory frameworks have been lacking to a large extent because the technology innovation has moved so much quicker than what the regulators have moved, but also they've taken the approach of wait and see, let's see what actually works out here, let's see what the people can actually make useful.
And they've now started realizing that these things are not going away. And a lot of the criticism, especially within the US under the Biden administration, was that we have people that are willing to regulate themselves to be compliant with regulations, but yet you're not giving them the regulatory space to do their business in a trustworthy manner. So please give us that regulatory space, please give us that framework. And the US government has come back with actually I would say a twin act. The one part thereof is what you've called the GENIUS Act, and the twin there too is something called the CLARITY Act. And the difference between the two things is literally the GENIUS Act is just there for the stablecoin world and the CLARITY Act then Moe to your point goes to regulate the security kind of version thereof.
So they will most probably take the part of the yield bearing part of the stablecoins, the things that can look like money market funds into the CLARITY Act. And why have they done that? It's very simple that on the one side they're trying to protect the deposit-taking institutions i.e. the business of a bank, and then on the other side they're trying to regulate people that act as portfolio managers and fund managers and asset managers. Because that is effectively what you're doing - you're taking charge of someone's assets and you're paying them a return thereon. So there is some form of risk that has to be mitigated in this construct.
Now globally, people are having this fight with each other. When is something a security versus when is something not a security? That's the fight that will happen in each country, with each central bank, with each regulator. That's the thing that regulators are very sensitive about.
And why are they sensitive about it? It's because they're trying to uphold the integrity of the financial market infrastructure. Because if you have integrity loss within your banking deposit-taking industry, then you have problems when you talk about running on the banks. But also when you allow things to get classified as security, what they're protecting there is pensioner money. So this is kind of the duality of the roles that all the regulators will take.
Now should we follow the pattern of America? Well, the part of the pattern that we should be following is creating clarity - not the Act, but the space for us to operate in. Because everyone is asking the same question: tell me whether this is a security, tell me what I can do and cannot do.
I do not necessarily agree with the construct that they've done it, but it's good for where strategically their country is moving towards. Moe you mentioned the treasury bills sitting behind it - go America, really good move for them. But within the South African space we actually don't have those restrictions, but we have a very elegant solution within our current regulatory construct where this has already been taken into account to a certain extent within the regulatory space, but yet they can do more. England or the UK to a large extent has taken a very low tolerance kind of approach, so they've not provided constructs and so forth in that space. Europe is going to what sounds like toddler names. MiCA and DORA are the names that they've gone with there. And every time I hear it, I can't help but Dora the Explorer with her friend Mica is coming up. But those are the constructs and very simply what you need to look out for from a stablecoin construct is: is it bankruptcy remote? Is it being managed in a transparent manner? And is your R1 equals to R1 in a bank account? That is quite simple and straightforward and this is what the regulations are bringing forth for us.
Mohammed Nalla: I'm going to jump in very quickly. I had to Google GENIUS Act because I just felt stupid not remembering the very long acronym. And I'm not even going to try MiCA and DORA because as someone who has got young kids, I'm thinking the intent of the legislation is to make sure that there's no swiper swiping your assets. Again, people who have kids who know Dora, they're going to understand that reference.
But GENIUS stands for Guiding and Establishing National Innovation for US Stablecoins Act. That's quite a lengthy acronym. But I think GENIUS is a lot more catchy than MiCA, and MiCA and DORA. What we can expect from the Europeans though are shorter acronyms but probably much more onerous regulation.
So Connie, I think when you mentioned that South Africa, in many instances on the legislation side, we tend to be ahead of the curve. That is somewhat encouraging. Connie, where does this sit in the South African regulatory framework? You know, obviously we've got to give people who participate in this space some sort of clarity. Not just clarity, but also security to make sure that they aren't unscrupulous actors in that space. But I'm going to pause there. Ghost, I think you had something to say before I rudely interrupted you with a GENIUS acronym.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah. Look, everything you need to know about US culture versus Europe comes in names like One Big Beautiful Bull, as opposed to DORA. If there's one thing they know how to do in the US, it's create some marketing opportunities around legislation.
But what I wanted to raise was not too dissimilar to where you were going with that, which was just around the entire regulatory framework and how people can feel good about trusting this thing. Because, I mean, that's the interesting thing - the gold standard is very far behind us, we're in a fiat currency era, which is really about trusting governments. It's part of why those who are not so keen on that have gone the route of bitcoin.
Stablecoin linked to a currency - you've now got two things you need to trust. You need to trust the government sitting behind the currency, and now you need to trust whoever's providing the coin and how that's audited and everything else. So it's a couple of hoops to get through from a trust perspective, and I think that's an important concept to maybe touch on is not just the regulatory piece, but also just operationally how you create that trust in whoever's actually buying these coins.
Connie Bloem: I can be a bit forward here with saying: but you trust your bank, don't you, whoever is holding your currency? And yet we got there, yet we trust them. So I shan't be that facetious, but I understand the question that you're asking.
So someone once made the joke with me, seeing that I'm in the blockchain space and in the crypto space, and they said the crypto community kind of makes the same mistakes that the financial market community did - just faster! So that's not always true, but we can learn from what the financial industry has already put in place. We don't need to reinvent the wheel and restructure everything and redo everything. Because at the end of the day, the concept of having things on a token and in a blockchain is not that fundamentally different from a risk perspective to how a money market fund is operated and constructed in the already existing regulatory space.
Because what is the difference between a yield-bearing stablecoin and a money market fund paying interest at the end of the day? I have money in a deposit, I have some assets backing it and I'm paying interest on it. Same construct. But the vehicle on which I transacted is now different. And our regulation has gone ahead and regulated the vehicle i.e. the token.
This is why we're having a bit of a struggle with each other in the regulatory space of okay, cool, but the crypto asset as the vehicle, the token is not the problem statement. The risk that is sitting behind it is the problem statement.
So let me give you clarity around how we are managing that risk and how we are giving our clients the peace of mind to know that we're doing the responsible things. Because we've seen what happens in the financial industry and we've taken the best of breed there and we've placed it on top of these assets. I said the first thing with stablecoin specifically is, is it useful? Is there utility for it? So firstly, let's not optimise something that shouldn't be existing in the first place, seeing as we we’re quoting some popular Americans and South Africans here today. That was was an Elon Musk quote. Let's not optimise that.
But there is a very good reason for stablecoins to exist because we need to transact in this digital world. We're issuing things, we're raising capital, and there's so much utility in a stablecoin. I'm not even talking about remittances of payments just yet. So, is it useful?
The second part is: is it bankruptcy remote? So when I say, is it bankruptcy remote, is it in structures that protects the deposits that's sitting behind it? And what Mesh has done is we've actually put it in the most bankruptcy remote structure that we could find. Most people only put it in segregated bank accounts away from their operational accounts. But let's be honest, you can still get to it, you can still interact with it, you can still transact with it. So, if something bad happens to the company, and this is now worst-case scenario, your money gets thrown into the entire pot with the rest of the assets in the company to get divvied up. You want to protect yourself from that. Ghost, you mentioned trusting the entity that holds it. That's the first kind of thing: is my asset safe?
So Mesh obviously has it in segregated bank accounts, but we've gone a step further and actually put it within the SPV structure, which is completely removed from our operations. So effectively, I cannot get to it as a director of that company. I cannot touch that assets. It will not be liquidated with the rest of the company. It's safe, it's secured, and you get first right of call on it.
That being said, on top of that, we also have incredibly well structured order structures on it at all times. You can see what the supply of that asset is and also what the supply of what is in our bank accounts. And you can match those things up one to one. And these are just like small things that some people take for granted, but definitely you shouldn't, that it's there, it's safe and secure. And then we also have monthly audited financials occurring on these assets.
So at every step, we've taken this approach of saying how can we do more? How can we give these people more clarity into it, even when there's not a regulatory structure that actually assists us in doing so? But that hard slog and that investment that we've made into that infrastructure with our regulatory space that we fill up has given Mesh an incredible tool for our clients that we're now exposing.
And we quickly mentioned silver - that's a beautiful asset, not just because of silver, but for our issuer on that asset, which is called Silver Bits as well, love their name. We took them out to market in two and a half weeks. And where in the world can you currently create an entire stablecoin company in two and a half weeks that is fully regulatory compliant and trading with clients with a high degree of liquidity? When you find them, tell me. I need to go tell them what Mesh does.
Mohammed Nalla: I think that's so fascinating. I said kudos to you and the team at Mesh on two-and-a-half-week turnaround time on that silver stablecoin that you've launched. I like some of the building blocks here, Connie, that you've mentioned - the remote SPV as an additional layer of protection.
I want to segue from this away from the regulation - I think we focused a little quite a bit on the regulation side of things. I think that's important again for our listeners just to understand some of the safeguards, the safety behind some of the structures. But I want to go into some of the specifics that you've got on the Mesh platform. And the reason for this is that I'm familiar with some of your assets in the stablecoin space. I know you've got the mZAR. I think that's your stablecoin that you really use from a transactional basis or a payment coin effectively. And that would effectively align to the GENIUS Act in the US, it doesn't offer any yield. But I've also been told that you're very close to launching what you're calling yZAR, and that is a stablecoin that then also offers a yield to people who hold the stablecoin.
Now, as someone who might be operating in this effectively tokenised space, I might be looking for this money market-esque type of offering. Can you talk to us around some of the specifics on mZAR versus yZAR that I know is coming and what are the differences? What are the drawbacks of one versus the other? How should we view these two stable coins that are existing in your stable?
Connie Bloem: Yes, yZAR is an answer to a problem statement that we've been interacting on our mZAR token and this is where we really listen to our market and we understand what it is that they're trying to do with their investments. mZAR to your point is just our rand-based payment stablecoin. It doesn't do anything other than making sure that you can transact in the best way that you can possibly transact in. And it does that job beautifully in its simplicity. It's designed to be an asset that is simple.
But we kept on getting the following questions of: Connie, but now I have money sitting in the account but it's just not doing anything? It's lazy. But I don't know what to invest in just yet? Or, I've just raised R100 million of assets, R150 million. I don't know. The sky's your limit - but I'm not ready to use it in my business just yet. What I do with it?
And the answer to what do I do with it is yZAR - and yZAR stands for yield-bearing ZAR, yield-bearing rand. It's a wiser way of managing your money effectively. So if you have lazy capital sitting in your bank account, what do you do with it? You want to put it in your savings pocket. But yet again, the problem with your savings pocket is the interest levels are incredibly low and you also don't really know when it's compounding, when does it pay out, all those kind of random things.
So we knew that we are going to compete with this kind of product offering in the market. Knowing that we can do so much better and so much more in our world, we decided to basically manage it like fund managers would manage their massive supply of capital. We put it into a combination of call accounts to provide you with the maximum amount of yield on this asset that we can possibly get for you. yZAR, what makes it unique is that it compounds daily, so if you actually keep your money in that on a daily basis, you will get interest for the days that it says there. And let's say you take three days to transact with it - you're going to get interest for those three days. It's not going to be wiped out like it is in your bank account.
And it then settles monthly, so on that monthly cycle, you would then get a little payment of yZAR back into your account that you can then do other things with again. So that compounding interest cycle that all investors would like to get into, where your money works “wiser” for yourself. And we've integrated this into our entire value proposition in Mesh because we really believe in this asset that we're putting out to market. So we're going to give our clients the ability to sweep into it automatically over the next few months, giving them the ability to actually transact in it or subscribe in it. So even when you're waiting for your IPO to close, you're going to still earn interest on this asset.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, maybe “wiZAR” is the right way to brand it, certainly sounds better than “why ZAR?” which reminds me of every time I visit the currency desk while traveling overseas and I remind myself of why I earn this currency and need to go and buy coffees with it in places like Dubai. It's always horrible.
Connie Bloem: It just depends on how strong your South African accent is, hey, so maybe yZAR is going to sound wiser…
The Finance Ghost: …yeah, maybe, yes.
Connie Bloem: …the more we go on.
The Finance Ghost: I thought you were going to imply that the rate I get at the desk depends on my South African accent, in which case I'm definitely willing to try anything to improve that spread. But alas.
Just moving on from yZAR to I guess just the bridge between fiat currency and these stablecoins - because I think especially for someone like me, who's maybe not someone who naturally plays around in crypto very much, sometimes you listen to this stuff and you're like, that's cool, but what does it do? Why do I need a stablecoin?
And I know one of the reasons is this concept of on-ramps and off-ramps, which is basically, as I understand it, which is hopefully correct, linking fiat currency and the world of crypto, right? So maybe that's a nice thing to just - again, I always like to bring it back to the basics as I build up my own understanding. I think for many people listening, who maybe aren't that familiar with it around some of the use-case stuff, what are these on-ramps and off-ramps? How does that actually work?
Connie Bloem: Good question. So the uses of it - sometimes you would hear in this world, what is the “utility” - very fancy word for uses. So basically what is on- and off-ramp is that when you transact with your brokerage accounts, you in any case need to fund your account, you need to put money in it so you can buy stuff. And this is just an elegant way for you to put money into it. So on-ramp, off-ramp is literally a deposit or withdrawal in your traditional world where you acquire a balance in a bank account. And in this regard, you're just getting an asset back. So instead of just putting it into someone else's bank account and trusting that they will do with it what they promise to do, you get an asset back into your account that you can then transact with. And then from there you can pay, you can buy, you can sell, you can transact, you can transfer as you would with any other currency, but in the digital world, so it is a lot quicker.
Most prominently, you see a lot of remittance payments and international payments being conducted within the stablecoin kind of world. So any place where you would effectively use cash, you would now use these assets with a lot easier interfaces and transacting capabilities as well.
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, Connie, I think that actually sums it up quite nicely, right? We bit off a lot on the show. I think we wanted to discuss legislation, then we wanted to discuss the stablecoin mZAR, then yZAR, which I quite like. And we haven't even gotten to silver. But maybe just as a quick wrap, as we get to the end of the show, can you maybe run our listeners through where they can get more information, not just about mZAR, but also the yZAR offering, when is that actually going live? And then maybe just touch on silver. I would suggest that we maybe park a lot of the silver discussion for an entirely different show because we can go into why silver, silver versus Gold. I think that's an entirely different show, but I think you can touch on that as well.
How do our listeners go out there, find Mesh? How do we make this a lot more understandable from a use case perspective, from a utility perspective, effectively, for people who are not necessarily crypto natives. At the end of the day, a lot of our listeners are probably familiar with money market funds. They're familiar with unit trusts, ETFs and individual stocks. How do people with that kind of backdrop and context find their way in this new world of fintech and all the exciting things that Mesh is currently doing?
Connie Bloem: My advice is always: jump in, get started, get using and then you will start seeing that it's not as big and scary and intimidating as you think it is. So the same way that you would explore a new app or a new bank account is the same way that you should be exploring this space and putting that out there. Go to our website, go to Mesh.Trade and see the content that we have available there on all our stablecoins and all our assets that we have listed. We have reams that you can go and read about it.
But as I said, the best place to start is by trying to interact with it and transact with it. And here, you can go directly via our website, as I said, Mesh.Trade and you can sign yourself up, you can log in to the platform and you can fund your account with something as little as R50 and you can start seeing how does this actually work for you? What can I buy? And I promise you it's not going to be so intimidating when you step into that space and you start seeing the things that you're used to seeing, just in a bit of a quicker way. Then you're going to start realising the fees look a little bit different and the assets are a lot more enticing as, as well. So my encouragement is: just start.
The Finance Ghost: Tell you what I'd like to just end off on for the sake of looking ahead and wondering what's top of mind for you, what you want to see the most - just in terms of policy or industry-type moves, what is that one thing that you are so keen to see over roughly the next year? If there was one thing that would happen that you think would just accelerate the adoption of these stablecoins that we've talked about, what would that be?
Connie Bloem: I love it when you ask me hard questions like that. But I think specifically…
The Finance Ghost: It’s because we’ve given you a 30-minute warmup Connie, so now we’ve gotta - I feel like you're ready to peek right at the end. There we go.
Connie Bloem: I'm ready! So from our perspective, we're going to keep on hammering on and doing the things that we think are right. Moe, you asked me when is yZAR launching? It's going to be the 26th of August. Then it’s going to be available for our listeners.
But we’re all building this industry up and especially in South Africa, what I would love seeing is that there is a shift in one or two regulatory pieces that would actually crack open a lot of benefits for all parties in the market - either updating the regulations on what is allowed under Board Notice 19 reg. 28, i.e. can pension funds and CIS funds actually hold crypto assets? This will break open an entire new spectrum in the market for all investors and all issuers as well.
And if the legislator is not ready to actually allow them to choose what they should be trading under their mandate, I would actually say then start looking at the COFI Act and start bringing in security regulations that allow these assets to grow.
So those are the things that I would be encouraging the South African market to keep on pushing, because that is the big change that everyone feels is going to unlock huge amounts of innovation in this country. And I would actually wager to say that it will unlock a bit of economic growth as well for us.
Mohammed Nalla: I like that, Connie. I think there's so much opportunity in the fintech space. South Africa's always punched well above its weight when it comes to financial services. And so it'll be really encouraging to see the regulators maybe sit up, take notice of this, create some catalysts for the industry to grow, rather than necessarily going out there protecting incumbents with an outmoded way of thinking.
And again, it's the discussion of whether South Africa takes the same approach as other economies out there that have embraced crypto, that have embraced the fintech space, or if they're going to be kind of backward looking and then kind of lumbering into this as the industry evolves with or without that regulation.
Unfortunately, that's where we've got to leave the show this week. There was a lot to discuss. Connie, we're definitely going to have you back on the show to discuss silver, maybe some of the other interesting things that you've got under the hood that are coming at Mesh.
To our listeners, go and find us on social media. It's @MagicMarketsPod, @FinanceGhost and @MohammedNalla, all on X. Go and find Mesh at Mesh.Trade and again, reach out to Connie and the team. They are willing to take your questions.
We hope you've enjoyed the show and Connie, we'll welcome you back at some point in time. To our listeners until next week, same time, same place, thanks and cheers.
The Finance Ghost: Ciao.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial advisor. Mesh Trade SA (Pty) Ltd is a licensed Financial Services Provider (53710) and an Accountable Institution registered with the Financial Intelligence Centre.
