Episode Transcript
The Finance Ghost: Welcome to episode 222 of Magic Markets. I realized 10 nanoseconds ago that this makes it our “double nelson” for the cricket fans out there, and a nelson is generally an unlucky thing that's quite difficult to get off. That's 111. In my batting career, I sadly never experienced this myself. I had no centuries to my name. Very sad. Certainly didn't have any double nelsons. But now we have one from Magic Markets and I promise we will get off it. We will definitely be back next week.
But some of that unlucky energy Moe might have found its way into portfolios recently and some of your recent intraday trading - you've graciously put your hand up to talk to us today about all the pain and agony that the market has dished out to you recently. So to those listening, prepare yourself. This is Moe's Bad Beat Story. I used to watch a lot of Texas Hold ‘Em poker and they used to go and interview the people after they've been knocked out and listen to their bad beat story about how unlucky they were and it was all just a bad hand and they couldn't believe what happened to them. I think that's why we are here today, Moe, for your Bad Beat Story!
Mohammed Nalla: I think it's a very appropriate show for our double nelson because the question is: does my intraday trading bounce back? I think it's also peer pressure, right? I indicated what I was doing a couple of weeks ago, touched on some of it last week and I think there's some interest to look beneath the hood and see what's actually been going on.
Now I want to maybe first start off by saying that this was an experiment on my side. I say it's an experiment - it's a very small part of the portfolio. I had actually initially tried out this intraday trading strategy back during the COVID era. I was sitting at my desk, I was looking at the screens and there's a lot of volatility in markets and this kind of strategy plays well when there's a lot of volatility. So I basically took an old strategy that I had successfully traded on back then, dusted it off, said, does it still work under current market conditions? And the TL;DR is that it does work, but you've got to be very careful of a couple of pitfalls and I'm going to share some learnings on that.
First and foremost, this is very different to some of the stuff we discuss in Magic Markets Premium, where it's a lot more investment focused and if you're a trader, it's more orientated around swing or position trading. Intraday trading is a totally different animal. It's the higher frequency stuff. You're literally looking at markets, traditionally the index future, not stock specific. You're looking at the S&P future in this particular case on a tick-by-tick type of basis. I was looking at this on a one-minute basis, on a 30-second basis, this is very high frequency stuff. And it's really orientated around not holding any positions overnight. So low risk in that regard. But at the same time, taking these very short-term positions directionally on the market when the indicators, when the candles are telling you that you want to take a position either long or short.
Now on that particular basis, you've also got to recognize that markets can be quite volatile. This is a strategy that historically had given us around a 60% win:loss ratio. So that tells you that 60% of your trades win, 40% of your trades lose. Anyone that's actually a high frequency trader will tell you that is a phenomenal win:loss ratio. Anything north of 50% is a great ratio, 60% is fantastic. But this is where the caveats or the provisos start to tick in. Because unless you execute absolutely flawlessly, your back-tested win:loss ratio is not necessarily what you're going to enjoy.
And what I'm going to tell you right now as a precursor to just start off the discussion is for anyone thinking that they're going to sit and trade from their cellphone or wherever it is, that's a misnomer. You know the Instagram people that show you the pictures of their Lambos and they're sitting on a beach and they're trading on their cell phones, that's a lie. This is a lot of hard work. It requires you to sit at your screens, look at this on a micro basis. And it's a full-time job, not a part-time job. So I'm gonna start off there, Ghost, because the fact of the matter is, because it's a full-time job, it can be both exhilarating and very draining at the same time.
And the irony is that even if you have a great strategy, your methodology is fantastic, it requires tremendous, not financial capital - this is the key point - it's not financial capital you're worried about here, yes, that's important, you've gotta have enough ammo to throw at your strategy to make sure you can scale up when you need to, scale down when you need to - but the real capital test here is actually emotional and mental capital. And that's the first point I want to land on is because I was sitting here, I was looking at my screens, I've got a lot of stuff going on. So when I was actually doing intraday trading, you've got to be laser focused.
And we laughed at this a couple of shows ago. I'd said it's like being a Formula One driver where you're fighting for inches. And it literally is that because you're sitting there hyper-focused on something that moves around sometimes, sometimes it's very volatile, there's a lot of action, sometimes there's no action. And therein lies the challenge is that you've got to really fight the urge to just do something because traditionally that's where some of your missteps come from. And we'll get into some of that shortly. Ghost.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, in a world of Formula One, sometimes you're driving the Red Bull or the McLaren Moe, and sometimes you are stuck all the way at the back in some horrible thing that's not even named after a recognised car manufacturer or even an energy drink. Sounds like you've had a bit of both, but I think let's just get some basics out the way.
So this was equities? Is it stocks, is it indices, is it a bit of both? What instruments exactly were you trading?
Mohammed Nalla: So in fact, it's a great point because I think the hyper-focus actually plays towards looking at a very limited subset of instruments. If you're going to be bouncing around looking at every single stock that's out there, it's going to get messy. You just can't dedicate your attention towards each and every one of those. And I did actually expand this out a little bit.
So I was looking at index futures, predominantly S&P futures, dabbled a little bit in NASDAQ futures. But those two kind of played together quite nicely. I found that there was less benefit in going with the NASDAQ future than there was looking at the S&P. I just got better signals on the S&P that came through.
I then also included - wait for it - Bitcoin futures! You've got to include that. Some fantastic plays there, right? You could often, on an intraday basis, see when the risk-on, risk-off was coming through because you saw it move in all risk assets. Now they don't always play perfectly together. Bitcoin and the S&P are correlated, but not perfectly. And so Bitcoin futures were interesting. We got some returns out of those, but I found it was quite expensive relative to the S&P where you've got fantastic price execution, you've got fairly narrow spreads. Bitcoin futures had a wider spread, higher fees. And so even though you were getting decent setups, it just wasn't the best use of capital because Bitcoin's fairly volatile, so your margin utilisation on Bitcoin futures was a lot higher. Your commissions as you're getting in and out of trades were a lot higher. And so your friction costs actually eroded some of the attractiveness of the setups that you could execute on Bitcoin futures.
Gold's gotta feature. Gold futures come through there. That was nice as a non-correlated view, certainly with the way markets have been right now. So if you wanted a contrast to equities or risk assets, you had gold. That was quite nice. And certainly how I use gold is everyone on the show knows I'm a gold bull. Long-term, I hold gold, I like gold, I've always liked gold. What I was using this for was trying to take short-term profits when gold got quite extended. Now it is risky because gold's been running really hard. When we were talking on the show just about a month and a half ago, we had that fantastic webinar with Mesh - a show with Mesh as well, where we discussed their gold launch - gold is only around $3,000 an ounce. It got to $3,500 an ounce. Now, even for someone like me, that's pretty extended. I use this to actually, let's call it take profit tactically, go short gold on a very short-term basis just to execute that. I wasn't really using it to go long gold because I have a very long gold position.
So gold futures came through there. A little bit of equity, a little bit of commodities, a little bit of crypto coming through there. And then I did experiment, but it was like one or two trades, not a lot, I experimented on oil futures. I didn't have a great feel for the market, let's be very honest. You got to really know what's going on. And so I limited it to those.
Currencies feature. You get some decent signals on currencies as well. So Canadian/Dollar, because I sit in Canada and there's been a lot going on in Canada. We've had an election just yesterday and so that was an interesting one to play, as well as Euro/Dollar. So I played a little bit in the currency space. Not a heck of a lot. I would say focused on the other contracts that I mentioned there, Ghost.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, you either die a fundamental investor or you live long enough to become a Bitcoin trader. I think Moe here, unfortunately, is our living proof. But what is interesting is you talked about being focused, yet that sounds like a lot. Do you think that that's one of the things that you would change, or is this because you just need the right signals and you're not going to get them if you're only watching one index or two indices at most, you're going to sit on your hands a lot. You're not actually going to get those opportunities. And that's almost why you need to create this universe of stuff you are willing to trade?
And then, you should be agnostic? I heard you saying: a bit of a gold bull. Feels like mixing drinks there a little bit, huh? I guess that's maybe part of the problem, right? You've got to take the emotion out of it. You're trading a chart, you're trading a candle, you're not really trading the underlying?
Mohammed Nalla: Yeah, I think that's a decent observation. So first of all, let me start off with your question that it seems like a lot. It's actually not a lot. Because what I was looking to do is this moves into a macro narrative. I wanted something in equities, I wanted something in safe havens. I wanted something in crypto as kind of a quasi-asset. Maybe some currencies in there. I tried commodities, not fantastic on that front. And again, maybe some development needs to go into refining the strategy there. But I was looking to just tick off some of the boxes on each of your macro playbooks. One that I was watching but never traded was the US 10-year. You can trade that using something like TLT for example, or even just bond futures. I looked at it, I didn't trade on that, but it's very much a macro playbook and to your comment, it's a portion of if you're just looking at the S&P futures, sometimes you'll go for an entire trading day doing nothing.
Now, if you're looking at this as a full-time job, doing nothing, yes, might preserve your capital, but it also means no returns. So it's balancing the discipline of doing nothing versus just having a look at what's happening in other sectors of the market without drifting too much from a core view of: I'm looking at intraday indicators, I'm just looking at candles, I'm looking to execute flawlessly on that.
In response to that, maybe some learnings are, we've already indicated that, Bitcoin was on the list. I did execute on that successfully, but I've taken it off the list. I now just look at it as an indicator to say what's happening in risk-on, risk-off. But I'm not going to trade it because it's suboptimal in terms of use of capital and costs. So there are some learnings in that process.
Would I continue looking at S&P futures? Definitely, there. No, I'm probably not going to look at Nasdaq because they play through quite nicely on the S&P.
Will I look at currencies? Yes. If there's a macro story, that means we're going to get some volatility and some opportunities in that space.
And then gold - talking of mixing drinks, it's not really mixing drinks because whilst I have a view, I wasn't confident to double up on my overall position sizing in terms of going long via the future. If you're someone who's only doing intraday trading, you're going to look at gold and you're going to be both long and short. I look at it because there were some great indicators, some great signals that came through on gold and I'll probably continue to do so.
So those are some of the learnings just in terms of: where do you want to skew your focus? The one thing I will say is I did not look at a single stock and the reason there is simply because stocks play very nicely if you're swing or position trading - if you're just doing stuff on an intraday basis and you're not holding overnight positions, it doesn't make any sense to look at single stock positions Ghost.
The Finance Ghost: No, for sure. And trading - the swing trading type stuff where you are sitting with positions for days, weeks, sometimes even months, maybe if it's a longer swing trade - it's all good and well, but if you're doing this on margin, which most trading will be, you're doing CFDs of some form or another, depending on how much leverage is in there, when you see the market go 5% or 10% in the wrong direction, even if it bounces back and you would have actually been right, it doesn't matter anymore because you've been dead and buried and washed away in the river by then, the position's gone, you're gone, right?
That’s the difference with trading on margin is when you get it right, you make a lot of money. Your return on equity effectively is fantastic. But if the thing moves against you, Trump says the wrong thing overnight or whatever, then it's a big disaster. And that's the difference when you are buying on margin versus if you're just investing or even if you are speculating, but you're not doing it on margin, if the thing hits you 10% or 12% in the wrong direction, it only hurts if you sell. It's the old joke: I didn't make a loss because I didn't sell it. It's that wonderful meme that goes around on X all the time, where someone's about to open that cupboard door and then all of the plates are against the cupboard door, they're going to fall and break. But if you just never open the door, the plates aren't broken yet.
Mohammed Nalla: It's a little bit like Schrodinger's cat, right? The cat's both alive and dead at the same time. Those dishes are both still intact and broken at the same time.
You've raised some very important points and it plays nicely into what I want to discuss here, which is position sizing, because you're right, when you're trading index futures, it's all on margin. Just make sure you know exactly what your risk tolerance is. And I'll give you some live learnings here, because again, I played with the strategy through probably one of the most volatile eras in markets ever, right? This strategy was live when we had Liberation Day, and it gave us some fantastic returns, but also some fantastic losses at the same time. So that's your dishes both broken and fixed at the same time.
Key learning on that is that regardless of what your capital size is, and again, there are different strategies that suit different people, just know whether you're racing in a Williams or if you're racing in a Red Bull or Ferrari or McLaren. You got to understand how much ammo you have to throw at something. Again, that plays to the elegance of also squaring up your positions overnight. It forces you into this very hard discipline of just knowing what your losses are. If you have losses, you got to crystallize those losses. It hits your P&L and tomorrow's a new day. You've got to start with a clean slate. Every single day is a clean slate. so there's some purity in the process. There is that - similarly with profits, you lock in your profits, they're on the balance sheet. Boom. Tomorrow, you can't rely on yesterday's profits. You're starting from a clean slate every single day. And so that helps you with the Schrodinger's cat scenario is that you've got to open up the cupboard and if your plates are intact, well and good. And if your plates broke, well, guess what? Don't cry over spilled milk or broken plates. Get up again tomorrow.
That plays to that tremendous emotional and mental capital. Because during Liberation Day, I actually took some spectacular losses. And thankfully my position sizing was appropriate. So, yes, they hurt, it's that old meme - oh, it's just a flesh wound, maybe an arm's missing, fine. But at the end of the day, you've got to get up and you got to say, well, the strategy works. What can we learn? How can we actually evolve from this? And so, yes, there's a little bit of curve fitting. You've got to be careful to not overly fit your curves and adjust your strategy too much because sometimes things break. Sometimes the markets will hand you a bloody nose. I got a bloody nose on the day when the market gapped up intraday, it gapped up by around 10%, 14% on the NASDAQ, you take some pain. I live observed that - you might have the position the wrong way around because it's looking as though it's going a certain way. And when a one-minute candle gives you a 5% move, guess what, you've hit your risk barriers. You're like, I've got to exit the position. And even if you think it's going to come right, which in that instance it probably didn't. So in that instance, the risk saved you even though you took a loss. You know, I probably took a loss around the 5% mark. That was my threshold. I cauterised the wound, I was licking my wounds. I literally switched off. I was like, I'm done for the day because I've hit my - what in my head, is my max loss for the day. I took the loss. I switched off the screen.
And I'm glad I did that because the psychology would have said it's got to come back, and it didn't. It actually went further in the wrong - based on the initial position - in the wrong direction. So that plays towards the discipline of take your losses, catalyse those losses, say, okay, we're done, and know when to step away, because position sizing matters. If I were outsized on my margin, I probably would have gotten completely wiped out. I would have wiped out this little experiment. Guess what? I didn't. Did I need to top up my margin account? No, I was fine. And at the end of the day, that's what's so important.
Now it plays to another point that I want to kind of get to before we wrap up the show. And that is also the point around noise. I don't know if you have any questions to ask before I move onto a point around noise and the discipline around that approach, but discipline is what this all boils down to.
The Finance Ghost: I did have one. I did have one before you do that, let me just ask you something quickly, which is around your P&L just in terms of how you actually measure it. So where you're looking at it and saying, okay, I have - well, I mean, you're in Canada, so it would be a Canadian dollar target today. You should set Rand targets, it's a bit easier! But a Canadian dollar target today, or is it a percentage target? Is it per week? Is it per month?
Because the way I look at it, for example, is I treat my own balance sheet as a little balanced fund effectively. I have money sitting in my current account. I have money sitting in sort of money market type investments. And then I have my equities, right? So literally I am my own balanced fund. And then at the end of every month, I just take a snapshot after all the debit orders are done ravaging said account, then you just go and have a look and say, okay, how much cash? What's in the savings account? What's the equity portfolio worth? So it's kind of this month-on-month and if you've moved money from your money market type stuff into the markets, and then that's just kind of disappeared into a horrible markdown of value or a mark to market down, it's just money that's “gone”, literally “gone”. Your savings account is less than it used to be. Of course, it's not gone because I'm not going and selling and crystallising all those losses.
But it is kind of that mindset of understanding how these things work. That's how risk works. At the end of the day, if you just leave the money in your money market account, you'll get that return. You're not taking risk with it, but you're also not going to get outsized returns. So I look at it as, what is my NAV changing by over a month? Which is very short, more like a quarter, a year, what's my goal for the year ahead? And obviously as a business owner, then it's very much variable income. It's all that stuff. But in the world of trading, is it a daily P&L? How do you actually think about it?
Mohammed Nalla: Ghost, it's a fantastic question. And I do the same thing as you. I've got this overall overarching view on my total NAV. And the total NAV is made up of listed investments, unlisted investments in the listed space. It's a long-term investing portfolio. There used to be a swing trading portfolio, I've been a lot less active in that particular front. It's why I'm experimenting with the intraday stuff as well, is to see what's the best use of what I call my risk budget. Now, once you've determined what portion of your balance sheet you're effectively willing to lose. Because that's what happens with risk budget, right? If I'm investing in my long-only portfolio, I say this is a portion of my portfolio that I'm willing to take long-term risk on. And then within that portfolio, I know what my risk tolerance is. I know how much of a drawdown I'm willing to take on specific stocks before I cut a position. Or maybe I just keep a position longer term. I'm a lot less sensitive in that space.
When it comes to the trading portfolio, this is what I would argue is the highest risk portion of my portfolio. And so by proxy, it means it's the smallest portion of my portfolio. Now it can't be too small, because at the end of the day you need capital to play with to make your strategy worthwhile. So it's a reasonable size. But if I were to contextualise this for listeners as a percentage, I would say this is maybe 10% to 20% of my total portfolio size. 20% if I'm doing everything perfectly and I have high conviction. If I'm not experimenting, it's probably closer to around 10% if I'm experimenting and I want to see what happens. And that experimentation is that I'd say this portion of my portfolio I'm carving out as school fees because I'm learning, I'm learning every single day. This process was an experiment. I've learned a lot.
And that process is to determine whether I want to continue doing this, whether I can actually extract those high-risk returns but at the same time risk the capital. And so it's always the balance within the overall portfolio. Now that I've contextualised that, let's say 10% of the overall portfolio, within that basis on this particular strategy because it's high-risk, it's high-frequency and it's intraday, I look at banking those profits and losses on a daily basis simply because you're closing out all your positions overnight.
Again, a quick proviso on that. I say you're closing out positions overnight – after-hours trading happens and sometimes it gives you fantastic opportunities. Maybe the Japan session needs to play catch up with the US session when you had all of the macro moves you've had. And so I will look at it selectively within the outside trading hours. Now the proviso is that your costs are the same but your spreads are wider, so you're less efficient in terms of executing in that space. But there are still good opportunities. So just keep that in the back of your mind.
When I say no overnight positions, it means when I go to bed at night, when I'm not looking at the markets, I'm completely square. I don't leave any open positions from any time when I'm away from my screen. It doesn't mean I'm not trading outside of US operating hours.
Now within this carved-out portfolio, what I do is that I have a limit in terms of what is my max loss on a position. I use that for setting a target, saying if a position moves against you, maybe it's five, maybe it's 10 points depending on how volatile the market is. You calibrate your market volatility. Now sometimes you'll even wear a position for more than that, but it depends on the market volatility on a per-position basis. And then I also have an overarching limit.
So that's what I used for example on Liberation Day, which just liberated me from some of my capital is I had hit what I determined to be a max loss for the day. In dollar terms, it could be whatever your number is, right? It can be $1,000, 5,000, $10,000, whatever your amount is based on your operating capital, based on your risk tolerance. I have a hard number and once I hit that number, I say, that's it, square up the positions. You're not in the right psychology, the right frame of mind, it's not working for you today. Switch off, come back to fight another day.
And that ties into the emotional and mental capital is that it's not because I've run out of capital, I've got capital in the account. It's because if it's not working for me today, something's broken. And because you're taking losses, it does mess with your psychology. It leads into the point I wanted to make around noise, right? Is that very often a mistake a lot of traders make is that you're down on a particular position on a day and as a result you what they call “revenge trade” - you're like, I've got to make back this loss. You get entrenched in that mentality of I've got to make back this loss. Now, this leads you into needing to trade rather than sitting on your hands, when sometimes sitting on your hands is actually the right move.
It also leads into another very toxic trait that I guess can come through if you're looking at this on a micro basis, and that is the noise point I wanted to make, is that sometimes if you're sitting there and nothing's happening across the various assets or contracts you're looking at, you start looking at your indicators and you're saying, well, we're almost there, let me pre-empt the move. Let me pre-empt it, it's going to go in this direction and that becomes very messy because you should be sitting on your hands. The indicators “kind of being there” is not the same as your indicators are actually there. It's a high-quality setup and I should just wait for the stars to align on that, so patience really becomes the key point. Some of my losses, I will admit, were linked to these behavioural biases or traits that come through when you're looking at it. You'll be: “I've taken some losses, I can clow it back, I haven't hit my daily max limit down. Let me try and get this back. The indicators are kind of there. They play together, right?” And sometimes that works, but sometimes it doesn't.
Now, if I wrap all of this up together, I mentioned a 60:40 win:loss ratio. That's fantastic. But at the same time, if I plug psychology into that, human beings are hard coded towards having loss aversion, losses hurt you a lot more than gains, right? Then the gains give you the benefit, right? And so on that basis, even with a 60:40 win:loss ratio, I found that I was taking profit a lot sooner than I should. So basically I should let the winners run a lot longer. I wasn't doing that because I was like, let's bank the gains, let's put it on the balance sheet. It's there and I can re-enter at a later stage. And this actually meant I left a lot of money on the table when the position was actually right, when the signals were correct. And then the flip side of that is we have loss aversion, sure, but also at the same time, in this instance, it works against you because remember, you're crystallising those losses as they come through. Now humans are like, I don't want to crystallize the loss. It's going to turn around. Let it run a little bit further. It's going to turn around. That is toxic! That is absolutely toxic because it means that you're letting your losses run longer and you're actually cutting your profits a lot sooner.
Now, what does this mean for your win:loss ratio? The trade’s the right way around, but you're maybe only getting half of the gains. So instead of a 60 gain, you're getting a 30 gain and then letting - or let's not be that bad, let's say it's a 40 gain, right? But then you're letting your losses run longer. And if it's 40, that's now magnified up to 60, that behaviour alone, either on position sizing or on behaviour, can actually mess up what is a very robust strategy.
And so it ties down to: execution is key. My key learning out of this is my execution can be scrappy from time to time because I'm doing it manually, right? I could systemise this. I could automate it and say: on these signals, buy, sell. It's risky because again, when you have very volatile markets, it could move against you and maybe the system doesn't catch it as minutely as you. If you see a candle going, if Trump's made this announcement, hey, tariffs are off and it's gapped, the system's not going to catch that necessarily until two candles later. And if that happens, you've wiped out a lot more capital.
So those are some of the learnings. Where do I land on this?
Swing trading is very different from intraday trading. I'm comfortable with swing trading. I can manage my position sizes. You leave it on for a long time and you wait for the view to actually materialise. Intraday trading is different. It's a lot of hard work and unless you're doing it full time, not sitting on a beach doing it on your phone, trying to micromanage the markets, I would caution against it. Quite frankly, I would caution against it. Am I switching off this portfolio? No, I think we've got a very good methodology there. I'm going to probably look at can I execute better? Should I change the timeframe? If it's a lot of hard work, this might work on a micro basis. Does it work on, instead of a one-minute candle, does it work on a 30-minute candle, does it work on a one-hour candle? Early indications are it doesn't work as well. So my question is: how do I lessen the workload and still make sure the strategy plays out? And that's going to mean a lot of work. It's going to mean a lot of experimentation. It's going to be a lot of school fees. But remember, I've carved this out as the money I'm willing to pay into the school fees to see if I can come up with something for the very high-risk portion of my portfolio. I'm not losing sleep about it.
Do I get grumpy when I take losses? Everyone does. But again, you live and you learn. That has been my learning over the course of the last, let's call it month, two months that this has been running.
The Finance Ghost: Yeah, Moe, that's brilliant. That's a lot of really good insights, thank you. There are lots of influencers out there and everything always goes their way. Obviously we've never subscribed to that nonsense. We've both been market professionals for a long time and so we are more than willing to acknowledge when things do not go well. But still, thanks for allowing us to dedicate our double nelson show to the double nelson that you experienced in the markets.
We'll leave it there for this week. to our listeners, if you've tried your hand at day trading, that would be interesting to know. Certainly if you've tried swing trading or whatever the case may be, no doubt we have some traders listening to this, it's always cool to get your feedback.
Otherwise, enjoy what is another holiday week in South Africa. And then next week it'll be back to normal with no public holidays for a while. So thank you for listening and Moe, thanks for sharing all of that.
Mohammed Nalla: Yep, thanks. It's cathartic. Get it off my chest, I guess. But again, it's about honesty, Ghost. At the end of the day, like we say, it's honesty, it's transparency, that's what we like to do here at Magic Markets.
I'm not a guru, I'm not going to go out there and get everything right. This is just sharing some of my learnings and I hope it helps a lot of our listeners because some of you might feel this is something I want to do. All of the caution flags on that, just know what you're getting into and if you've done that, very keen to learn from you. Share your learnings with us on social media. It's @magicmarketspod, @FinanceGhost and @MohammedNalla, all on X or go on LinkedIn. Pop us a note on there. We hope you've enjoyed this. Enjoy the holidays and until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and cheers.
The Finance Ghost: Ciao.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial advisor.
