Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This episode of the Magic Markets podcast is proudly brought to you by Westbrook Alternative Asset management. Established in 2004, Westbrook is a multi asset, multi strategy manager and advisor of alternative investment funds and co investment platforms. Westbrook has a heritage as a shareholder and operator of assets and invests their own capital alongside investors in private debt, hybrid capital, real estate and private equity in South Africa, the UK and the usa. Westbrook provides investors with a unique gateway to private market alternative investment opportunities which are traditionally difficult to access. Investors benefit from the depth of experience and quality of investment teams who apply the Westbrook investment and risk philosophy and approach to everything they do. And for those seeking capital, Westbrook is able to structure unique hybrid capital solutions to help you meet your objectives anywhere on the capital stack. Welcome to episode 211 of Magic Markets. That's becoming a pretty big number now. We have done a lot of magic Markets podcasts and we've done a lot of Magic Markets podcasts with the team from Westbrook. Sometimes I think that Dino Zuccolo should actually be mentioned as almost a co founder of this thing he's been on so many times and I'm grateful for that because we always learn so much from him about this world of private markets and how Westbrook operates. It's really great. And Dino is back with us this week and it's going to be super interesting. But before I welcome Dino, or maybe I'll hand that over to you, Mo, you can welcome Dino formally, but hello to you all the way from Canada as usual in a jersey which I don't need to wear right now because it is summer where I am. I'm sorry for you.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah, you've got to stop rubbing that weather, the weather in my, in my face there, ghost. I mean, we know Cape Town's beautiful. Heck, even Joburg's beautiful weather wise relative to Canada right now it's quite freezing. But that aside, you know Dino, great to have you back on the show. And again for our listeners who maybe aren't familiar with Dino, Dino's from Westbrook. And the reason why we have Westbrook on the show is that Magic Markets is all about markets. And markets are not just listed assets. You know, there's a massive asset class out there in the alternatives asset space. And Westbrook pretty much play across the value spectrum there. You know, they're involved in private debt, hybrid capital, real estate, private equity, you name it. Westbrook's actually got an offering in those spaces and they've done a really good job in terms of taking those alternative asset classes and, and bringing them through to both, you know, connecting the investors on the one side as well as connecting to businesses on the other side that may have a requirement for funding. So that's some of the reason as to why we like having Dino and the team at Westbrook on the show is that it allows us to actually round out our discussion on markets. And so with that as kind of the welcome back to Magic markets. Dino, certainly I don't think we've had you during 2025, so I'm gonna say Happy New Year, even though it's already in February. But we've got a lot to get through in today's show because private assets have been very topical globally. And again, you've got these two sides of the coin where some people are saying, private assets, this is the way to go. Listed markets aren't really where you're going to be getting decent risk adjusted returns. And on the other end of the spectrum, you've got people that are still afraid of private assets, they're still afraid of alternatives. And that goes A, in terms of a lack of understanding, but B, maybe also in terms of just where are we in the cycle, you know, what's happening with interest rates, are private assets actually priced correctly? So lots of dynamics at play there and I'd like to unpack some of that on the show, so I'm going to stop there. Dino, I'm going to welcome you to the show because I'm really keen to get into some of those discussion points with you.
[00:03:25] Speaker C: Mo Ghost, it's such a pleasure to be here. I look forward to doing many more of these this year. And I think from the Westbrook perspective, something we'd like to do is bring you a bit closer to both the investor and the partner side of our businesses. Talk a little bit more in depth around what are the issues investors are grappling with, what are the things that our entrepreneurs that we fund are looking for, give you some case studies, etc. And hopefully, you know, stop talking. So at such a high level and being a bit somewhat esoteric and getting really into the meat and potatoes of what we do and why.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Sounds good, Dino. We're definitely going to hold you to it, that I can tell you for sure. So let's, let's get into some of these meat and potato issues and maybe just talk to why this stuff really actually matters at the end of the day, because private markets are relevant and growing in relevance. I mean, from our side, we see it, I certainly see it on the jse, you don't see many companies coming to public markets, trying to raise capital, seeing that as their way to, you know, actually access money or get an exit for entrepreneurs. I think that's a big one as well. You know, people found a business and they want to actually get their money off the table. Public markets are not necessarily the friendliest place to do that. And it's not just a JSE problem. I mean, you see very similar stories coming out of the UK market. I think the US is a little bit of a bubble, so be honest, for a hundred reasons, and becoming more of a bubble basically every day. But we're definitely not going to talk politics today. We are going to talk private markets, though. And I mean, this suggests that there's more and more activity happening in private markets. Would you say that that is what's happening?
[00:04:53] Speaker C: Yeah, of course. I mean, I think private markets are probably the, or one of the asset management and investing trends of the world right now. And it's driven by a variety of factors. I mean, you know, I just think back to when I worked in corporate finance 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, you did, too. And I mean that, that was a time where listed companies were trading at massive premiums to their nav and capital markets were open and there was things happening. And if you look at the situation today, it's just literally done a 180. I mean, there's almost, it's almost a swear word in some instances to be listed today. And if you look at the stats in the US and the JSE is no different. The number of listed counters has halved, but the market caps have gone up. So, so what does that mean? That means that there's more concentration in fewer stocks and increasingly the big, the apples, the, you know, of the world are, are driving performance and, and investors, without realizing it, are becoming more and more concentrated and more and more correlated. And so why alternatives have become so relevant in, in, in my view is, and my, my thinking has evolved on this as well. You know, in the beginning days, I thought that this was very much about giving investors better returns. And, and that is, of course, an objective, but actually it's about diversification because we live in a world today where the, you know, magnificent. I don't even know what they're called anymore. They're the Magnificent Seven or whatever, the fans, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: Magnificent Seven. Magnificent Seven.
[00:06:26] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Okay, that's, that's your, that's your, that's your acronym. We'll see what it comes out as next, though, it'll probably change again. So point they'll kick Tesla out and I'll be right. Just kidding.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, the point is, so much of what happens now economically in one's portfolio is driven by the performance of those seven businesses. And I mean, that's actually quite scary. So when you look at the fact that the global investable universe is predominantly in private businesses, it doesn't really make sense that people's investment portfolios don't incorporate private assets. And that's really what alternatives are, as they are private market versions of the things that people are used to investing into. So the old 60, 40, 60% equities, 40% bonds, in my view, is dead. I mean, that's been proven to be a less optimal way of allocating over the last 15 years mathematically than if you were to incorporate alternatives into it. And so I think in that context, and then if you look at 2025 in the context of a world that's just exceptionally volatile, I mean, you've got Trump doing and saying crazy things and like a lot of the world, led by populism, enjoying it, it's like a scary place to be an investor. And I think alternatives are one way of potentially steadying the ship to some degree.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: I'm going to let Mo jump in now because I know he's itching to ask you something, Dino, but I just wanted to comment on your point about that capital activity 10 years ago because I think it's super important and needs to be stressed again because, yes, I was also in corporate finance at around the same time as you and there was so much more activity. And if you think on the JSE about the recent listings that have gained some kind of excitement, it was We Buy Cars, right, and Boxer. Those are the two that really come to mind. Both of those were spin outs from broken things in both cases. So technically both assets were already available to investors. They were just wrapped up in something that then became very broken and they were kind of set free. You know, it's not exactly, oh, brand new company we've never seen before comes to market and raises, you know, 500 million rand to go off and do amazing things. So it's a difficult situation and it's nice to see private markets kind of stepping in there for entrepreneurs as access to capital and as exits.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: Yeah, Ghost. And I mean, maybe one thing to add there, I mean, you've mentioned the companies that have listed on the jse. I think the prevalent trend is actually delisting though, right? I mean, You've got the potential for companies like Bala World to be taken private as well. Imperial's gone, you know, so I think that trend also talks to the rise of alternative assets as an asset class. And I want to go back to Dino's point on diversification, because Dino's right. You know, it's not just about returns for me, it's about risk adjusted returns. And that's just a fancy way of saying diversification. And I think, you know, one of the things that maybe one is an access point. Listed assets have become very easily accessible. There are lots of passives out there. And so people go and they buy ETFs and they then get that concentrated risk that we're talking about. Whereas alternatives have maybe globally they've lagged a little bit in terms of accessibility. It's gotten a lot better. Something that's interesting is you always gotta follow the money. I know up here in Canada, Canada and North America, but Canada specifically, the institutions, the big pension funds have been all over the alternative asset class space for the longest time. You know, they've got material investments in infrastructure, you name it, you know, they've invested globally. And you'd see that to a much lesser degree, I think down in South Africa, where I think a lot of the prevalent thinking certainly around pension funds is still the old school, 60, 40 approach. And that's got to change. I'm going to say that straight out. You know, that's got to change because international investors have involved, the market has moved. And that's the reason why this discussion is so important, is that investors need to stop shooting themselves in the foot. They need to be able to have access to these types of assets to give you better risk adjusted returns. And this is not me just being a shill for Westbrook. This is my firm and fundamental view on the underlying asset class and asset allocation. Now, Dino, there is a question in here and where I want to go with this is that there's a lot of fear and hesitation to invest in private markets. And like I said, that some of that comes from education. I think we've done a lot with Westbrook on this podcast to try and educate people about the different pillars of the alternative asset class spectrum, what they mean. So I think that's one point. But the other point is what I mentioned, it's accessibility. And so my question is, where do you think those choke points currently are? And specifically then, where are those choke points for South African investors? What are the trends you're seeing? Are they actually adopting the asset class.
[00:10:48] Speaker C: Yeah, Mo, I mean, I know that the listeners aren't seeing me here, but I'm smiling and there's a reason I'm smiling while you ask the question. Because, I mean, the question you ask is one of the key debates that we have internally within Westbrook all day long, which is, I think it's generally accepted now that alternatives have a place and I think the demand is there and it's kind of hard to refute the role that private market assets play in a portfolio. However, I feel like in South Africa we really are still fitting a square into a circle or a circle into square, however you want to say it in terms of giving investors access to private markets, because the investment ecosystem in this country is not established from a regulatory perspective to allow it. So if you look at our base, I mean, there's like three types of clients. There's a direct client who comes to Westbrook directly and invests with us. That's the easiest type. And I think I would suspect that many on the podcast are those types of investors. However, the majority of investable assets in this country sit in a combination of wealth management advised clients and then institutions. Now, wealth management advised clients in South Africa are tied to platforms 91, glacier, coronation, etc. Which are platforms that are designed to allow wealth to buy products for their clients. And many wealth advisors, by the way, also use something called a discretionary fund manager or a dfm, which is a institution or an organization that effectively they outsource the investment function to. Which I think is great, because if you're a two or three man wealth management business, it's impossible for you to assess the entire global ecosystem of investable assets. Now the problem is neither the platforms that I've just mentioned nor the DFMs in the way that they are constructed are allowed to buy alternatives because there's just a blanket prohibition on them buying things that are not priced every day and traded every day, right? So at the moment our conversation really is to direct clients to those few wealth advisors who actually are willing to move outside of what they normally do on the platforms and buy alternatives, which mean they've got to manage it separately and report on it separately, etc. And then obviously the big one is the institutions, right? And I think more and more as I progressed down this road, I realized that the likes of a multi manager has a huge role to play in giving, call it the retail investor, exposure to alternatives indirectly by including alternatives in their portfolios. And we've, we've had some of those come into the Westbrook ecosystem recently. So we've got a long way to go. Mo, if you compare South Africa to places like the US or the EU in terms of access, and it's probably one of the biggest impediments that we have outside of just basic education and something around the complexity of what it is that we do.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: And Dino, maybe just a follow up there. I mean, a lot of that, as you indicated, it's the regulatory hurdles and burdens. You know, what is the industry doing to engage with the regulator to actually move this discussion onto a much more mature phase? Because I sometimes feel as though the regulators missed the point completely down in South Africa. It's why they're so far behind what's been done in the rest of the world.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: There are regulatory pushes taking place, Mo, but the reality is that hope is not a strategy. And, you know, it's, in my view, the path of least resistance is to try and find ways to package what we do in a more palatable format. So I mean, to say that we, we don't have any hope for regulatory change would be unfair. But these things are slow and, you know, unfortunately, the desire to change in the world of alternatives is low down the priority list relative to, for example, tax changes for hedge funds and so on and so forth. So I think what, what is probably more realistic is to find ways to package these things that clients can access. Now, the problem is the obvious thing to do is to take, for example, private credit fund and list it because then you can buy it everywhere. But now is the whole benefit of a private credit fund not undone by listing it, because then you become subject to volatility and daily pricing movements and Trump says something or interest rates move and then the price of your underlying investment moves. And, and the whole idea of alternatives is to avoid that.
[00:15:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting space. Just a moment of appreciation for Mo and how closely he watches the South African markets. That the second delisting that came to mind frame was Imperial, which happened in 2022. Mo, on the money. I love it. I'm kidding. But it's more of a, it's obviously more of a sector crossover and everything else, but actually there's a message in there as well, which is to say that it's not an exciting market compared to the international stuff on a listed level. It's just not. There's a reason why in Magic Markets Premium, we do what we do, which is to focus on the international stuff. And it's because South Africans, like everyone in the Whole world suffer from familiarity bias, right? They want to invest in brands they know, brands they can see and touch in a place they understand. You know, it's in the name, right? Johannesburg Stock Exchange. Okay, great. I know where Joburg is. I've been there. You know, I know where that place is. I'm going to invest there. Familiarity bias is massive. And Dino, I mean, you guys have assets in a bunch of jurisdictions, you have investors in all sorts of interesting places. Do you also see that familiarity bias coming through in the private market? Do you find that South African investors are saying to you, we're interested in alternatives and for that matter their advisors, the multi managers, the whole ecosystem you've talked about. Do they look at you and say, we're interested in this but we want it close to home, or does it not really come through in conversations you end up having?
[00:16:22] Speaker C: It's an interesting dynamic. So I think many South Africans are pretty keen to invest offshore. I think a lot of us have gotten our heads around the fact that we would like some hard currency exposure. But the dynamic that I do find fascinating is that South Africans love to invest in the UK for whatever reason. I don't know if it's cultural alignment, I don't know if it's that the privileged few, when they have gone overseas, have by and large gone to the uk. I don't know if it's time zone thing, compatibility of culture, but South Africans are really comfortable investing in the uk. I mean, when I meet a high net worth individual, many of them already own real estate in London and Surround. So what we do find is that there's, there's a lot of familiarity there. But then when we start to talk to investors about the US which arguably, I mean is, is potentially more interesting at the moment just given where that market is, it's far. The IRS in the US is scary. There's 50 states, each one's really different. A lot of South Africans haven't been there and it's just foreign, right. And therefore it's scary. And so when things are scary, I'll just go back to what tried and tested and I buy some form of a tracker or ETF and I move on. Right. So I definitely think that there are pockets of opportunity and certainly from a Westbrook perspective, I mean, look, our UK business continues to be the biggest than the flagship and with the longest track record, etcetera, in the asset management side of things. But the US I see as a very big opportunity this year.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Coach, going back to your comment, I mean, yes, it Goes all the way back to Imperial. There were some sector crossovers there. I mean, I know there's been a long, long, long list of companies that have delisted from the jac.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: This guy defending himself. Look at him. Look at him.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: No, but it talks to what we're discussing today. Right. I mean, that's why there's the opportunity for players like Westbrook is because there's a lot of interest in private businesses. I mean, the overwhelming majority, as Dino's mentioned, the overwhelming majority of businesses globally are actually unlisted. And to Dino's point, around the US being a very exciting market. I mean, US economic exceptionalism notwithstanding, what we're seeing right now with the tariff tantrums and the rest, I mean, the. The US has been a remarkably strong economy. Europe and the uk, they've struggled quite a bit. It'll be interesting to see whether they come around the corner this year, given the kind of tensions we're seeing globally. Dino, you've kind of touched on the point I wanted to raise next, which is that we've seen some of the trends from 2024 kind of follow through. You've mentioned how the US is a high potential market for you. You've had some interesting opportunities, you've discussed with us on the show historically. But I want to really get into what does the outlook look like for Westbrook for 2025 specifically from an opportunity set perspective. And that's not just geographically. You've kind of touched on that. I want to understand what does that look like from an equity versus debt mix? You know, where is the value sitting in the value chain right now based on investor appetite, but then also based on the potential payoffs and the potential returns versus risk that you're seeing in the market. Because that becomes very important in terms of informing an asset allocation for me as a client or for a pension fund or for anyone else that's out there listening to the show.
[00:19:24] Speaker C: Yep. Look, I think we've come from an environment, mo, where for the last while, investors have just been paid much better for being in the debt of a business's capital stack than in the equity. I mean, the equity holders for the last four or five years have been working primarily to pay the debt holders and get very little return for themselves. So, you know, the big change this year is that interest rates have started to come down. I'm not a macroeconomist and, and this view seems to change almost weekly, but it would appear at the moment that interest rates will continue to come down this year. But not to the same degree as perhaps what had initially been thought. Right. So we, we've been very much in like a private credit driven ecosystem where investors have been really enjoying high yields, even double digits in some instances in, in hot currency. I think that the big change is now with interest rates coming down that that should spark some level of equity activity. So if you look at sort of our views, there's two, there's two. I mean the first is that M and A transaction flow should improve and M and A transaction flow improving for us means that there's more opportunities to get into businesses, be it in what we call hybrid capital, so more in the mayors sort of pref equity with an equity kicker type investment style, which is something that we plan on going into in the UK in a bigger way this year, but then also in things like real estate. Now real estate as we know is very, very linked to interest rates for two reasons. Because firstly the ability to obtain debt, which you know, real estate is an inherently geared asset class, changes a lot based on where interest rates are. And then the value of a property changes correspondingly in what's called the capitalization rate. Right. So I think what we've seen there, especially in a market like the US is two things have happened. Interest rates have started to come down so you can get cheaper debt. And what that does mean is property values should appreciate to some degree in the right subclasses. But also we've seen, because we've been in this prolonged higher period of, you know, high interest rates, the, the expectation gap that used to exist between what a seller is asking for an asset and what a buyer is willing to pay is shrunk to some degree. And so that should translate more into transaction flow. So like I think if you were to look at our view of the world in 2025, it's private debt remains relevant but, but it probably is logical to recycle into some element of equity, even if it is protected equity like hybrid capital. And then I think the other theme that is yet to fully play out is GNU and sort of post GNU South Africa. What we saw last year was big hype, lots of excitement, lots of people talking about wanting to do things. But I think the consensus has been that the actual flow of the talk and the rhetoric into activity in the private markets in South Africa has been slower. Right. So I think what we're hoping to see there is an increased flow of deals locally and then that will allow us hopefully to bring some interesting opportunities to the client base locally where we've been pretty quiet over the last sort of 18 months.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: And Dino, I mean just maybe one quick follow up on that. In terms of the mix between local versus offshore from a South African domiciled investor perspective, you know, what is the attractiveness of offshore look like relative to the attractiveness of the pipeline down in South Africa?
[00:22:34] Speaker C: Yeah, it's high Mo. I mean it's always been for a very high net worth client, 80% and above offshore for a like a slightly less wealthy client, probably 50, 50 or, or, or in and around that range. You must remember that the nature of who your investor is changes that because if you're a South African, you've probably got money locked up in some form of a pension fund, you probably own a house here and if you're an entrepreneur, you got a business here. So you inherently aren't going to invest that much locally because you've already got a very, very high proportion of your net asset value invested locally in South Africa. So we do see much more in the way of our clients investing offshore. What I saw post GNU was a few clients who said to me that's it, I've taken my money offshore for a period of time, I'm investing locally, I'm bullish. I think that's calmed a little bit. I think there was like a little bit of GNU Foria initially. People are kind of become a little bit more aware of the realities of what's going on here and whether the GNU even lasts a question mark at the moment. But I'd say that the, on the whole, the relative degree to which clients want to invest in South Africa is slightly higher than what it was 24 months ago.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: I very glad you brought up that sort of mix of debt and equity and where you guys are on the stack and everything else and how that mix is changing because actually wanted to ask you that, but you answered the question already and I would refer the listeners if you want to go listen to a. A podcast dedicated to this hybrid capital concept. Episode 81 we had Dino on and we also had Richard Asheson from your UK team. Both of you are still at Westbrook, which talks to also the consistency of the team there, which actually says a lot. That show was all the way back in June 2022, which is around the same time that Mo likes to make references to deals on the jse. So it's, it's still fresh, much like or definitely fresher than the Imperial example. Just kidding. I'm done with. He's making rude signs of me. This is why we can't use video. Do you see? This is why we have to. It's got nothing to do with me and my brand. It's got everything to do with Mo. Can't control himself. Anyway, moving on from such horrible, rude things, Dino, I think you've touched on some of the stuff that's obviously changing this year. You've touched on a lot of great points there. We're going to do more and more of these this year as well. But I think maybe just for understanding some of the consistency in the space, if there's a trend that you could pick on to say, hey, here's something that actually is just more of the same, it's come through from last year. We're just getting on with our business. That is really what you guys are up to, right? It's business as usual. I think that's maybe an important point in some respects is you're carrying on doing what you've been doing and doing well for a while now, evidenced by the fact that we talked about this two years ago and you've now been at Westbrook for how many years do you know?
[00:25:05] Speaker C: Just over nine, I think.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a. That's a decent innings. So I guess that's the last question. I think for us on this podcast, it's just what sort of carries through from last year. Is there anything specific you can think of or anything you want to specifically touch on?
[00:25:17] Speaker C: I mean, private credit for me is the. Is the one interesting asset class because it is relevant to everybody. It's relevant to your smaller. I don't want to use the word retail, but like, I find, I just find the phrase like to be a bit demeaning. But like your smaller investor, there's absolutely a place for private credit in their portfolio. There's absolutely a place for private credit in a family office portfolio. There's absolutely a place in an institutional portfolio. Why? Because cash returns move with relevance to interest rates. Right. And so what we do at Westbrook is we lock in the spread between what you can get in cash and what you can get in our funds and that spread doesn't go away. And I think everybody in their portfolios has place for a higher yielding, low lock in, tax efficient type investment that is capital preservation focused. That's the first thing. The second thing, ghost, is we mustn't forget that if you look at the UK and if you look at the EU and you look at the US average, allocations to alternatives depending on where you are, if you sort of like high net worth individually talking 20 to 30% of your portfolio. If you're talking family office, you're up to 50%. South Africa, we like nowhere even close to that. So our growth is very much coming from an increased adoption rate in South Africa. And to the point I made at the beginning of the podcast, if your goal is not just to get the highest possible return but it's actually to diversify, then private credit makes sense for anyone who's a new or first time adopter into alternatives because of the lack of correlation and diversification benefits. So that's the way I look at it is you've got private credit sort of as the, as the hero of our business, the Steady Eddie. That's always going to have relevance and then over time your asset allocation will move hybrid capital. This year, maybe next year, it's private equity and we see where it goes now.
[00:27:05] Speaker B: Dina, I want to land on something practical to kind of close off the podcast. Right. We've spoken a lot about this. For listeners that are maybe not familiar with Westbrook. How can people who are interested a find find you? Where can they find you? The second point is, you know, in terms of accessibility, what is the minimum ticket size that Westbrook would consider from investors? I think that's really the nub of the issue for me is a lot of people sometimes listen to this and they're like, you know, that's for rich people. You know, I can't really play here, but we've discussed retail or smaller investors, as you correctly call it, not being demeaning at all. You know, smaller investors. What is the minimum ticket size? Where can people find you and can they get in touch and ask you any further questions?
[00:27:42] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, investors are always welcome to get hold of us directly, but I think the most logical way to do it is, is through your wealth advisor. If you have one, challenge them. Have you looked at alternatives? Do you access them and ask them if they don't? Why? Because you'll be surprised with the answers. If the answer is I can't buy it on my platform, that's not a very good answer. You know, if the answer is I don't like the risk or I find the return profile, like there's a, if there's a good, sound fundamental thesis as to why people don't like it, fair enough. But if, if it's just an access impediment, that's probably not a good enough answer. So I think the more progressive and more kind of wealth businesses that have their fingers on the pulse very much are Accessing wealth and alternatives and where they are very useful Mo is that you can get around things like the minimums by coming in through a wealth advisor, because what they do is they aggregate assets and then trade, you know, a bigger number with us at once. So if you have a wealth advisor, get them to get hold of Westbrook. If you'd like to talk to us directly or you don't have one, you're also welcome to do so. The minimums generally started a million rand at the moment. If you come to us directly, it's different if you go through wealth. And the best way to do that is you can get hold of us through the website. That's Westbrook.com Westbrook with an e W E S T B R O O.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: K E. Fantastic, Dino. Thank you. We're going to ask you to spell Westbrook out in exactly that voice every single time you come on the podcast for the rest of time. Just be prepared. It's going to happen. I think we're going to have to leave it there. And Dino, thanks. It's lovely to get you back on the show. First one of 2025, definitely not the last. And yeah, good luck with the start of the year. We look forward to having you back and we can get into, as you say, some of the details around some of the stuff and just understanding exactly how Westbrook plays because I think you're at such an interesting point in the value chain at the end of the day of connecting opportunities and capital and it's always good to dig into some of that stuff. So Dino, thank you and we will welcome you.
[00:29:28] Speaker C: And congrats, guys. I had no idea that we started with you in 2022. I feel like I've blinked and here we are. So well done.
[00:29:35] Speaker A: I mean, it might have been, honestly older than that. Probably it was. It was even earlier than that. I just think episode 81 is a good one to go back to for hybrid capital. But yeah, thanks. It's 211 episodes. Did we say mo? I can't even remember now what the start of the show was. It's. It's a half decent innings, 211 and counting.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: And hopefully with Westbrook on well into the future and well into the past. For listeners not familiar, go and check out the library. You can go and search that on our website. It's www.magic-markets.com. you can also find Ghost and myself on exits at Finance Ghost and at Muhammad Nala. Or follow magic marketspod1 word or reach out to Dino and the team at Westbrook. If you have specific questions there. That's where we're going to leave it this week. We hope you've enjoyed it. Until next week, same time, same place. Thanks and cheers, Dino. We'll see you soon.
[00:30:20] Speaker C: Ciao.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not financial or investment advice. Please speak to your personal financial advisor.
